Being Mekarev an Intermarried Jew

Is leaving their spouse the only muttar way?

Why can’t you mekarev the Jew and trust in the process that you cannot control the rest?

Is it fair to put pressure on this person to leave his or her spouse?

Again, why not mekarev the person who is Jewish? Wouldn’t that work out the rest in time?

You dont try to convince them to leave their spouse, especialy if there are children. You are better off trying to convience the non-jewish partner to convert

Joseph, it is not necessary to be right. It is necessary to be smart. If the Jewish partner is a cohen there is no other way other than divorce. However, if he is not it might be better in the long run to mekarev them and hope that the non-Jewish partner will undergo a halachic conversion and then they will get married properly.

Being “married” to a non-Jew is a lav as is a cohen being married to a gioret. On the other hand, chillul Shabbat is karret. It might thus be better to mekarev the cohen even if he might not leave her.

Avi K.

I dont think you are correct about a Cohen marrying a convert. I know such a person . The woman had actually converted Reform and they got married. Later on the woman decided she wanted to become more religious and converted Orthodox. They were not forced to divorce. He is a Passul Cohen and their children are not cohanim. They do not have a Ketubah, but remain married (They are both religous as are their children and grandchildren)

Neville, She is very religious and the whole family is also quite religious. If you saw them you wouldnt even know the backround. You would think they were hemish people

ZD, how would the bet din force them?

Yehudayona, so far as Ik now you are correct. However, there might be an issur of lifnei iver in staying with him.

Neville, what about marrying the children of someone who cheats in business or is a baal lashon hara? So far as the gerut is concerned, what counts is her intent when she went into the mikva. It could be that she was not told about this mitzva. It could be that she intended to leave him but had second thoughts later. We discussed this issue regarding a well-known gioret in a previous thread that was full of LH by “frum” Jews. Interestingly, those who attacked Rav Goren for revoking a conversion (which may not have even taken place) were quick to “revoke” hers.

Don’t separate them that’s the worst thing you can do yes it’s sad they the person married a goy but listen u have to have the right approach . Ask them if they want to put on teffillin / light shabbos candles . Don’t force them. Don’t force them to wear a yarmulke and tzitzis they can if they want to and once you have a connection with the person wether u learn with the person or the person comes to daavening then u can discus it s Jew is never ever far… listen I’m not on shlichis I’m just in HS so I don’t have much experience even though I have a little …….

Actually from what Ive heard from Kiruv people the biggest problems are people who converted Reform or Conservative. At least with Patrilenal jews you can tell them orthodoxy doesnt hold by that (and its still tough many times) but a reform or conservative convert you cant tell them much

It would be a big mistake to focus on trying to get the husband to leave her.

What if she is meant to convert? Kiruv is a slow process. Wait for him to become more observant, and once he does, and she is exposed to it, perhaps she will desire to become frum and convert halachically. If not, their religious differences may well lead to divorce. Let him make the decision on his own. Even if it takes her a decade to convert (or for them to amicably divorce and re-marry appropriate parners), that will show the wait was worth it.

People have to make decisions on their own time. Lives are at stake. One has to be wise and know what battles to pick, when to push an issue and when not to. Why focus on one mitzvah that would cause the most suffering when there are 612 more?

Another thing to consider is that many who are mekareved do not stay with Yiddishkeit long, and slide back until their own secular ways (or even convert so some other religion, c”v’s.) Is it a good idea to whisk a starry-eyed BT away from his family, plunging the family into despair, when he may well be no more religious than before within a few months, having destroyed his children’s lives for nothing? Often the slower, more gradual process is more effective.

According to Kabbala there is a special inyan to brink back non-Jewish descendants of Jews (zera Yisrael). Hopefully these people will become investigate Judaism, discover that they are not really Jewish and convert. I, in fact, have several friends who are products of marriages between Jewish men and non-Jewish women. They all converted and are now quite frum.

A lot of good responses on this thread.

I personally don’t believe Joseph is a kiruv rabbi.

Let’s say a Jewish man wants to become frum but is married to a secular Jewish woman? Should we urge him to immediately leave her? After all, every moment she is refusing to immediately become 100% frum she is causing him to sin in various ways! Of course not. Some misguided kiruv rabbis might do this, but not the reasonable ones. Rav Arush’s Garden of Peace has an important discussion of such issues.

It’s a similar issue when a goy wants to convert but is already married to a Jew. We don’t urge him to immediately leave the Jew (although that would put an end to some aveiros), because if he plays his cards right she may well become a BT and everyone will be better off. Both these last two are common scenarios.

yytz
“when a goy wants to convert but is already married to a Jew. We don’t urge him to immediately leave the Jew (although that would put an end to some aveiros),”

I dod not believe that is correct. when the goy converts he has to accept all mitzvos. He cannot remain with an irreligious woman who will not keep halcha. Although your reasoning may be a good one. A Ger has to be mekabel the entire Torah.

On the other hand, as I quoted from Rabbi Resiman besehm R’ Moshe “Nur ah Ger niz mekabel Zayn kol hatorah bevas Achas” A Baa lTeshuva should keep as many mitzvos as he can if leaving his goyish Wife isnt possible of course he should still keep kosher, wear tefilin etc.
and As ZD said these conversions are generally done, as Halcha says they are good once done.

Nobody is advocating converting someone before they marry a jew. The question is AFTER they are married for some time especially if there are children. And some time does not mean they get married and the day after they get married the non-jewish spouse starts conversion. We are talking about enough time (Whatever that might be) where its unlikely the will split (Like if there are children)

Zahavasdad: A ‘marriage’ between a Jew and a goy is not considered to be halachically valid anyway, so converting the non-Jewish spouse is always ‘for the sake of marriage’. It is straight up halacha that we can’t accomodate these cases, one of the reasons is that it is rewarding the intermarried Jew for his/her wrongdoing.

”Kicking people out is not going to work”

It works for the Syrians, intermarriage is virtually nonexistent in their community B”H. We are better off without the people who will still intermarry after all the warnings and education against intermarriage, seeing the harm it has done to Klal Yisroel. Those with Jewish mothers and non-Jewish fathers are Jews and we definitely should be mekareiv them, yet it is statistically proven that they have weaker Jewish identities than those w/ 2 Jewish parents. An example, a friend of mine has a Jewish mother and he didn’t have a bris because his father did not want him to.

Judaism is not like Catholism in that there is no central authority (Like a Sanhendrin) Its very spread out. The Syrian community is small and very cohesive so they can do things the larger community cannot.

A group like Satmar can throw out someone from Satmar as they are small and cohesive, but they cant throw out someone who is not a Satmar , or who doesnt want to be a satmar.

While you might say there are Gedolim, Many jews do not hold by the Gedolim and mockingly call them ” Supreme Charedi Leaders” Their power and influence and holds to those who follow them, And I stand by my statements until there is a Sanhedrin, you cannot throw someone out from Judaism, they will just go to another group of Jews

Joseph- since creation people have been doing aveiros. Hashem could stop it but he doesn’t. He lets us choose what to do whether good or bad. All we can do is educate others and the best way is by being a good role model and loving others. When people see someone real they often want to be more like them. That could lead to real lasting change and growth. Its beis din Job to keep law and order not the job of kiruv rabbis.

“A conversion for the sake of marriage is completely pasul and even though some Batei Din allow it sometimes this does not mean it is ok. It would be the same as the rabbonim going into the house of every freie yid who eats chometz on pesach to replace the chometz with matzos. ”

Please easy with the am haaratzos
firstly such a geiros is NOT passul (though it might be bedieved) see Mechaber 368:12
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9147&st=&pgnum=194
Rav Uziel has a teshuva on this in which he brings a teshuvas Harambam that essentially allows this mipnei takanos Hashavim

Secondly. Of course Rabbonim should prevent a frei Yid from eating chometz if they can. You comparison is a good one, but strangely it led you to the wrong conclusion

“We are better off without the people who will still intermarry after all the warnings and education against intermarriage, ”

Who gave yo upermission t opush away members of Klal yisroel. Yisroel af al pi shechatha Yisroel hu. If we can get him to wear tefilin great! Get rid of his chometz, of course we shoudl (in spite of you strange assertion) get him not to intermarry, again of course we should.
but if that sint an option of course he shoudl keep other mitzvos and please leave any evaluation of potetial geirus to competent poskim

Joseph – I didn’t notice know 150 yrs ago they were giving malkus in Europe. however today we don’t have that any more. And kiruv rabbis can’t take their place. Sure having a Sanhedrin would be great but we don’t have it.

I appreciate your dedication to halacha and desire for others to keep the Torah. I think however there is something lacking in your approach. There is a lack of sensitive and sympathy for others. The ways of the Torah are derchei Noam. When you spend time with people who have really worked on themselves and are real Torah Jews you can see this. You may be right about certain halachos. But it’s clear from all the reactions you get that something is off. You are not spreading Shalom your not encouraging people here. There is something lacking. A lack of empathy and trying to understand things from others perspective. A lack of understanding that people are humans and not dogs who can be trained with carrots and sticks.