being Niftar Al Kiddush Hashem

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  • #617658

    How is it possible or what are ways that a person-in today’s generation-can be niftar Al Kiddush Hashem besides being Chas V’shalom killed by a terrorist?

    #1180766

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Saving someone from a fire or any other way (drowning)

    #1180767

    Perhaps you can first show me a source that someone who was killed

    by a terrorist was niftar al Kiddush haShem. (There’s probably a

    thread – or 10 – about that already, so feel free to just link.)

    #1180768

    When a new is killed by a Muslim in Israel R”L he is murdered because he is Jewish and muslims believe that they have a commandment to kill jews. Now is that not called a yid who was niftar al kiddush Hashem?

    6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust R”L by the Nazi’s because they were Jews. And not because they wanted their homes or some other reason. Each precious yid murdered al kiddish Hashem

    #1180769

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    MA,

    If your comment was in reference to me you didn’t understand my answer

    The jew’s home isn’t on fire, someone else was and the Jew was going to save that person (because the Jew is a upstanding human being that wants to save people)

    You don’t have to be a victim in order to die al kiddush Hashem, just like someone can live al kiddush Hashem they can die al kiddush Hashem (am I being clear?) I happen to think so

    #1180770

    CA

    it wasnt to you i was talking to Comlink

    #1180771

    So I guess NOBODY ELSE knows of any way possible for a yid to die al kiddush Hashem.

    What a shame.

    Cause this actually was a test to see what level we are on today of mesiras nefesh for Hashem. I gave it a few days before writing this for people to reply and only 1 person was able to think of a way to give up his life al kiddish Hashem. Now we can all see how low of a madreiga we are on in klal Yisroel compared to previous generations who gave their lives up and stood up for Hashem

    We we all be returned to this madreiga of mesiras nefesh for Hashem that we are supposed to be on

    #1180772

    jewish source
    Participant

    How is it possible or what are ways that a person-in today’s generation-can be niftar Al Kiddush Hashem besides being Chas V’shalom killed by a terrorist? LIVING AS A PROPER JEW

    #1180773

    Sam2
    Participant

    We are a religion of life, not death. Being Niftar Al Kiddush HaShem is not a goal or a dream or something we should find ways to do. There is only one way for it to happen. And if HKBH decides that that is the way for one of us to go, we should be Mekabel it B’Ahavah. But there is no “test” to figure out ways to do it.

    #1180774

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Oish..

    Here we have our collective Mashiach (oopps, I meant Mashgiach) always close at hand to gauge, measure, examine, analyze our connection status, at all times, to HaShem. Thanks for the test. Now I know where I failed…

    Jewish Source: I believe you’re most definitely correct. Living like a Jew ought to be like is a much harder, longer Nisayon. Billam was not able to – he was only able to request dying like a just person – ???? ???? ??? ?????. We Jew have a higher calling – to live like a Jew. To effect a Kiddush HaShem even at rest, leisure. ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???. That’s something more sublime!!

    #1180775

    Meno
    Participant

    “We we all be returned to this madreiga of mesiras nefesh for Hashem that we are supposed to be on”

    Mesiras nefesh and dying al kiddush Hashem are completely different things

    #1180776

    jewish source
    Participant

    LF Thanks

    #1180777

    mik5
    Participant

    The Chofetz Chaim davened that he should be zoche to die al Kiddush Hashem. He was never zoche to this, but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was.

    #1180778

    mik5
    Participant

    Rebbe Akiva said: “Every day I say [in Shema] love G-d with your all soul and when will I be zoche to fulfill this [myself]? So we see that Rebbe Akiva also yearned to die al kiddush Hashem.

    #1180779

    mik5
    Participant

    Unfortunately I have seen with my own eyes [woe to the eyes that see this!] religious Jews with yarmulkes and even a beard transgressing a halacha that, according to the Chazon Ish and the Steipler and possibly also others, one should die for it and not transgress. And that is the halacha of not shaking hands with the opposite gender.

    #1180780

    Sam2
    Participant

    “The Chofetz Chaim davened that he should be zoche to die al Kiddush Hashem. He was never zoche to this, but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was.”

    This might be the most disturbing and disgusting thing I have seen all day. Wow.

    #1180781

    Joseph
    Participant

    Sam, he’s correct that Rabi Akiva long davened that he should be zoche to die al kiddush Hashem.

    #1180782

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The chofetz chaim is not the same as Rabbi AKiva

    #1180783

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Sam – i agree completely. i was surprised to see it got thru

    #1180784

    Joseph
    Participant

    ZD: If Rabi Akiva davened for it, why should it be any less if the Chofetz Chaim davened for it or that it is considered a very desirable way for any Jew to leave this world.

    I was taught already when I was a small child in Yeshiva that this is the best way to leave the world that we can hope for and it entails a guaranteed spot in gan eden.

    #1180785

    sam

    may we one day reach this high madreiga of being willing to give up our life al kiddush Hashem

    Rabbi Akiva was even a level higher then this, he did it Besimcha-with all the pain he was going through-& it was his top priority to die al kiddush Hashem

    #1180786

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    RTOTY award?

    #1180787

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    i dont think that was the problem…but i will let him speak for himself should he so chose

    #1180788

    147
    Participant

    The chofetz chaim is not the same as Rabbi AKiva zahavasdad:- Please let me refer you to an exceedingly famous Mishna in tractate Rosh haShono:- Yiftach beDoro kiShemuel beDoro.

    #1180790

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: R’ Akiva was hoping that when the opportunity came, he would be able to fulfill this Mitzvah. Also, the Gemara doesn’t say he Davened for it, just that he hoped for it to come. We don’t Daven for death. We hope than when it comes, HKBH gives us the opportunity for it to be as meaningful as possible, it whatever way that is. And it is certainly disgusting to say that someone died because of the Chafetz Chaim’s Tefillos.

    #1180791

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, who says davening to die al pi kiddush Hashem means davening to die? Perhaps it means davening that when he dies, at the time already determined, it should be al kiddush Hashem.

    #1180792

    mw13
    Participant

    Sam2:

    R’ Akiva was hoping that when the opportunity came, he would be able to fulfill this Mitzvah.

    I think it was more than that… If I remember correctly, it was “all my life I have been pained by this passuk; when will I be able to fulfill it?”

    Also, the Gemara doesn’t say he Davened for it, just that he hoped for it to come. We don’t Daven for death… And it is certainly disgusting to say that someone died because of the Chafetz Chaim’s Tefillos.

    True, R’ Akiva did not daven for death, and I’m pretty sure the Chofetz Chaim didn’t either. But as DY pointed out, it could very well be that the CC davened that he would die al Kiddush Hashem when it was his time to go.

    #1180793

    feivel
    Participant

    I think mik5 phrased his statement in an unclear manner. I understood his intent as DY explained.

    I don’t think anyone needs to call his statement “disgusting” without seeking clarification first. In this case it’s not very difficult to Dan l’kaf zchus

    #1180794

    feivel
    Participant

    Note also mk5 never even implied that the Chofetz Chaim davened for anything regarding R Elchonon.

    #1180795

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    i would agree with you in theory, but the impact of that type of statement in the way that it was phrased deserves that response. If it was mistated, there is the option to restate. and he has not indicated in any way that it was not what he meant so the response does, and should remain unless that happens.

    #1180796

    Joseph
    Participant

    SL: Would you also not provide the benefit of the doubt if the poster was ZD?

    #1180797

    Avi K
    Participant

    Rav Chaim Brisker said that it is preferable, and much more difficult, to live for kidddush Hashem.

    #1180798

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    so sorry buddy, picking on posters instead of posts is your MO, not mine.

    #1180800

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    and you seem to have missed the fact that there was no judgement involved. Someone made a comment that sounded very much against the way we believe. the comment was called disgusting because you dont leave things like that open for others to accept. i agreed. nothing was said about the poster, about his political or religious intentions with the post or anything else. Being Dan L’zchus isnt even relevant in this situation.

    #1180801

    mw13
    Participant

    so sorry buddy, picking on posters instead of posts is your MO, not mine.

    Isn’t this comment, in of itself, picking on posters instead of posts?

    #1180802

    feivel
    Participant

    When a statement that a Jew made is publicly labeled as disgusting, although nothing was directly said about the persons character, I believe the chiyuv to at least ask for further explanation before such an embarrassing public judgement is made, is at least called for by menchlikeit, even if not invoking the chiyuv of being Dan l’chaf zchus (which I believe IS applicable here).

    Anyway that’s the way of public forums, and this one is unfortunately not an exception, to quickly and harshly pass judgement and not retract said judgement when an opposing reasonable explanation is proposed.

    Something about the psychological nature of these forums. I personally don’t claim exemption from such poor behavior.

    #1180803

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    no, it was a direct response to an accusation

    #1180804

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    feivel – i take issue with your comment on many levels. if i believed the comment was in any way reflective of the person then i would have agreed differently. and if he said that it wasnt what he meant then i would have said i misunderstood and i retract it. you are making alot of accusations here that i supposedly did things that never even occurred to me, and i dont even know where you are coming from.

    #1180805

    feivel
    Participant

    That statement by mik5 did initially cause a harsh reaction in my gut, until I read it more carefully and gave it some consideration.

    Anyway it’s none of my business anymore.

    #1180806

    Joseph
    Participant

    SL, it is yourself who has a distinction of certain ideologies whose posters you individually defend and others you don’t.

    mik’s comment was “The Chofetz Chaim davened that he should be zoche to die al Kiddush Hashem. He was never zoche to this, but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was.”

    He didn’t say anyone davened to die per se. He said davened that when he dies it should be al kiddush Hashem. That’s exactly the same sentiment as Rabi Akiva. And just as Rabi Akiva died al kiddush Hashem, mik pointed out that Reb Elchonon died al kiddush Hashem.

    None of the alternative meanings that you’ve proposed was actually stated.

    #1180807

    mw13
    Participant

    SL:

    it was a direct response to an accusation

    I don’t see how that justifies “picking on posters instead of posts”. If somebody accuses you of something, does that allow you to attack him personally?

    And btw, what exactly did Joseph “accuse” you of?

    #1180808

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    it remains your business for as long as you take it upon yourself to musser those who speak out and your words exist for viewing.

    I read it that way and it gave me a bad feeling in my gut so i reread it and saw nothing different (i still dont see any change. people are merely explaining away the first half of the statement, not the second) I didnt bother agreeing until i saw that someone else felt the same way. he hasnt said a word about having been read wrong.

    #1180809

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    “None of the alternative meanings that you’ve proposed…”

    can you list them for me?

    #1180810

    feivel
    Participant

    I’m sorry Syag

    I regret entering the conversation here, and don’t wish to get further entangled.

    Maybe you’re right. I’m not sure

    #1180811

    why don’t we go back to our original question & see if we can make up for failing the test by not being able to think of any ways that a person can die Al kiddush Hashem when a true yid should be willing to do anything for Hashem.

    original question?

    How is it possible or what are ways that a person-in today’s generation-can be niftar Al Kiddush Hashem besides being Chas V’shalom killed by a terrorist?

    #1180812

    Joseph
    Participant

    SL, you wrote “Someone made a comment that sounded very much against the way we believe.” Yet mik nowhere suggested anything of that sort. He suggested Reb Elchonon was zoche to die al kiddish Hashem when the time came for him to leave this world; not that Reb Elchonon was zoche to die.

    #1180813

    feivel
    Participant

    Btw. I was only “giving mussar” to the one who made that statement.

    My comments were directed only to him or in response to your defense of him.

    #1180815

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    I have to agree with Sam2 and Syag Lchochma here. The disturbing part of mik5’s first post was not his comments about what Rabbi Akiva and the Chofetz Chaim davened for themselves, but rather his assertion that the Chofetz Chaim’s tefillos resulted in Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s death.

    #1180816

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avram, see my last comment (prior to this one) where I address the point about Reb Elchonon.

    #1180817

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Avram in MD,

    his assertion that the Chofetz Chaim’s tefillos resulted in Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s death

    Why do you need to read it that way? Why not read it that his tefillos resulted in the z’chus, but that he died exactly when he was anyhow supposed to?

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