May 3, 2016 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #617658
How is it possible or what are ways that a person-in today’s generation-can be niftar Al Kiddush Hashem besides being Chas V’shalom killed by a terrorist?May 3, 2016 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1180766
Saving someone from a fire or any other way (drowning)May 3, 2016 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #1180767
☢️ 🚭 ☣️ Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲Participant
Perhaps you can first show me a source that someone who was killed
by a terrorist was niftar al Kiddush haShem. (There’s probably a
thread – or 10 – about that already, so feel free to just link.)May 3, 2016 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1180768
When a new is killed by a Muslim in Israel R”L he is murdered because he is Jewish and muslims believe that they have a commandment to kill jews. Now is that not called a yid who was niftar al kiddush Hashem?
6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust R”L by the Nazi’s because they were Jews. And not because they wanted their homes or some other reason. Each precious yid murdered al kiddish HashemMay 4, 2016 2:12 am at 2:12 am #1180769
If your comment was in reference to me you didn’t understand my answer
The jew’s home isn’t on fire, someone else was and the Jew was going to save that person (because the Jew is a upstanding human being that wants to save people)
You don’t have to be a victim in order to die al kiddush Hashem, just like someone can live al kiddush Hashem they can die al kiddush Hashem (am I being clear?) I happen to think soMay 4, 2016 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #1180770
it wasnt to you i was talking to ComlinkMay 6, 2016 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1180771
So I guess NOBODY ELSE knows of any way possible for a yid to die al kiddush Hashem.
What a shame.
Cause this actually was a test to see what level we are on today of mesiras nefesh for Hashem. I gave it a few days before writing this for people to reply and only 1 person was able to think of a way to give up his life al kiddish Hashem. Now we can all see how low of a madreiga we are on in klal Yisroel compared to previous generations who gave their lives up and stood up for Hashem
We we all be returned to this madreiga of mesiras nefesh for Hashem that we are supposed to be onMay 6, 2016 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1180772
How is it possible or what are ways that a person-in today’s generation-can be niftar Al Kiddush Hashem besides being Chas V’shalom killed by a terrorist? LIVING AS A PROPER JEWMay 6, 2016 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1180773
We are a religion of life, not death. Being Niftar Al Kiddush HaShem is not a goal or a dream or something we should find ways to do. There is only one way for it to happen. And if HKBH decides that that is the way for one of us to go, we should be Mekabel it B’Ahavah. But there is no “test” to figure out ways to do it.May 6, 2016 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1180774
Here we have our collective Mashiach (oopps, I meant Mashgiach) always close at hand to gauge, measure, examine, analyze our connection status, at all times, to HaShem. Thanks for the test. Now I know where I failed…
Jewish Source: I believe you’re most definitely correct. Living like a Jew ought to be like is a much harder, longer Nisayon. Billam was not able to – he was only able to request dying like a just person – ???? ???? ??? ?????. We Jew have a higher calling – to live like a Jew. To effect a Kiddush HaShem even at rest, leisure. ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ???. That’s something more sublime!!May 6, 2016 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1180775
“We we all be returned to this madreiga of mesiras nefesh for Hashem that we are supposed to be on”
Mesiras nefesh and dying al kiddush Hashem are completely different thingsMay 6, 2016 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1180776
LF ThanksMay 9, 2016 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1180777
The Chofetz Chaim davened that he should be zoche to die al Kiddush Hashem. He was never zoche to this, but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was.May 9, 2016 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #1180778
Rebbe Akiva said: “Every day I say [in Shema] love G-d with your all soul and when will I be zoche to fulfill this [myself]? So we see that Rebbe Akiva also yearned to die al kiddush Hashem.May 9, 2016 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1180779
Unfortunately I have seen with my own eyes [woe to the eyes that see this!] religious Jews with yarmulkes and even a beard transgressing a halacha that, according to the Chazon Ish and the Steipler and possibly also others, one should die for it and not transgress. And that is the halacha of not shaking hands with the opposite gender.May 9, 2016 11:39 pm at 11:39 pm #1180780
“The Chofetz Chaim davened that he should be zoche to die al Kiddush Hashem. He was never zoche to this, but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was.”
This might be the most disturbing and disgusting thing I have seen all day. Wow.May 10, 2016 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1180781
Sam, he’s correct that Rabi Akiva long davened that he should be zoche to die al kiddush Hashem.May 10, 2016 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1180782
The chofetz chaim is not the same as Rabbi AKivaMay 10, 2016 1:48 am at 1:48 am #1180783
Sam – i agree completely. i was surprised to see it got thruMay 10, 2016 2:00 am at 2:00 am #1180784
ZD: If Rabi Akiva davened for it, why should it be any less if the Chofetz Chaim davened for it or that it is considered a very desirable way for any Jew to leave this world.
I was taught already when I was a small child in Yeshiva that this is the best way to leave the world that we can hope for and it entails a guaranteed spot in gan eden.May 10, 2016 2:30 am at 2:30 am #1180785
may we one day reach this high madreiga of being willing to give up our life al kiddush Hashem
Rabbi Akiva was even a level higher then this, he did it Besimcha-with all the pain he was going through-& it was his top priority to die al kiddush HashemMay 10, 2016 2:31 am at 2:31 am #1180786
RTOTY award?May 10, 2016 2:32 am at 2:32 am #1180787
i dont think that was the problem…but i will let him speak for himself should he so choseMay 10, 2016 3:37 am at 3:37 am #1180788
The chofetz chaim is not the same as Rabbi AKiva zahavasdad:- Please let me refer you to an exceedingly famous Mishna in tractate Rosh haShono:- Yiftach beDoro kiShemuel beDoro.May 10, 2016 4:53 am at 4:53 am #1180790
Joseph: R’ Akiva was hoping that when the opportunity came, he would be able to fulfill this Mitzvah. Also, the Gemara doesn’t say he Davened for it, just that he hoped for it to come. We don’t Daven for death. We hope than when it comes, HKBH gives us the opportunity for it to be as meaningful as possible, it whatever way that is. And it is certainly disgusting to say that someone died because of the Chafetz Chaim’s Tefillos.May 10, 2016 10:21 am at 10:21 am #1180791
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Sam, who says davening to die al pi kiddush Hashem means davening to die? Perhaps it means davening that when he dies, at the time already determined, it should be al kiddush Hashem.May 10, 2016 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1180792
R’ Akiva was hoping that when the opportunity came, he would be able to fulfill this Mitzvah.
I think it was more than that… If I remember correctly, it was “all my life I have been pained by this passuk; when will I be able to fulfill it?”
Also, the Gemara doesn’t say he Davened for it, just that he hoped for it to come. We don’t Daven for death… And it is certainly disgusting to say that someone died because of the Chafetz Chaim’s Tefillos.
True, R’ Akiva did not daven for death, and I’m pretty sure the Chofetz Chaim didn’t either. But as DY pointed out, it could very well be that the CC davened that he would die al Kiddush Hashem when it was his time to go.May 10, 2016 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #1180793
I think mik5 phrased his statement in an unclear manner. I understood his intent as DY explained.
I don’t think anyone needs to call his statement “disgusting” without seeking clarification first. In this case it’s not very difficult to Dan l’kaf zchusMay 10, 2016 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1180794
Note also mk5 never even implied that the Chofetz Chaim davened for anything regarding R Elchonon.May 10, 2016 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1180795
i would agree with you in theory, but the impact of that type of statement in the way that it was phrased deserves that response. If it was mistated, there is the option to restate. and he has not indicated in any way that it was not what he meant so the response does, and should remain unless that happens.May 10, 2016 2:40 pm at 2:40 pm #1180796
SL: Would you also not provide the benefit of the doubt if the poster was ZD?May 10, 2016 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1180797
Rav Chaim Brisker said that it is preferable, and much more difficult, to live for kidddush Hashem.May 10, 2016 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1180798
so sorry buddy, picking on posters instead of posts is your MO, not mine.May 10, 2016 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1180800
and you seem to have missed the fact that there was no judgement involved. Someone made a comment that sounded very much against the way we believe. the comment was called disgusting because you dont leave things like that open for others to accept. i agreed. nothing was said about the poster, about his political or religious intentions with the post or anything else. Being Dan L’zchus isnt even relevant in this situation.May 10, 2016 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1180801
so sorry buddy, picking on posters instead of posts is your MO, not mine.
Isn’t this comment, in of itself, picking on posters instead of posts?May 10, 2016 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1180802
When a statement that a Jew made is publicly labeled as disgusting, although nothing was directly said about the persons character, I believe the chiyuv to at least ask for further explanation before such an embarrassing public judgement is made, is at least called for by menchlikeit, even if not invoking the chiyuv of being Dan l’chaf zchus (which I believe IS applicable here).
Anyway that’s the way of public forums, and this one is unfortunately not an exception, to quickly and harshly pass judgement and not retract said judgement when an opposing reasonable explanation is proposed.
Something about the psychological nature of these forums. I personally don’t claim exemption from such poor behavior.May 10, 2016 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #1180803
no, it was a direct response to an accusationMay 10, 2016 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1180804
feivel – i take issue with your comment on many levels. if i believed the comment was in any way reflective of the person then i would have agreed differently. and if he said that it wasnt what he meant then i would have said i misunderstood and i retract it. you are making alot of accusations here that i supposedly did things that never even occurred to me, and i dont even know where you are coming from.May 10, 2016 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #1180805
That statement by mik5 did initially cause a harsh reaction in my gut, until I read it more carefully and gave it some consideration.
Anyway it’s none of my business anymore.May 10, 2016 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #1180806
SL, it is yourself who has a distinction of certain ideologies whose posters you individually defend and others you don’t.
mik’s comment was “The Chofetz Chaim davened that he should be zoche to die al Kiddush Hashem. He was never zoche to this, but in the merit of his prayers his primary talmid Reb Elchonon Wasserman, may G-d avenge his blood, was.”
He didn’t say anyone davened to die per se. He said davened that when he dies it should be al kiddush Hashem. That’s exactly the same sentiment as Rabi Akiva. And just as Rabi Akiva died al kiddush Hashem, mik pointed out that Reb Elchonon died al kiddush Hashem.
None of the alternative meanings that you’ve proposed was actually stated.May 10, 2016 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #1180807
it was a direct response to an accusation
I don’t see how that justifies “picking on posters instead of posts”. If somebody accuses you of something, does that allow you to attack him personally?
And btw, what exactly did Joseph “accuse” you of?May 10, 2016 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1180808
it remains your business for as long as you take it upon yourself to musser those who speak out and your words exist for viewing.
I read it that way and it gave me a bad feeling in my gut so i reread it and saw nothing different (i still dont see any change. people are merely explaining away the first half of the statement, not the second) I didnt bother agreeing until i saw that someone else felt the same way. he hasnt said a word about having been read wrong.May 10, 2016 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1180809
“None of the alternative meanings that you’ve proposed…”
can you list them for me?May 10, 2016 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1180810
I’m sorry Syag
I regret entering the conversation here, and don’t wish to get further entangled.
Maybe you’re right. I’m not sureMay 10, 2016 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1180811
why don’t we go back to our original question & see if we can make up for failing the test by not being able to think of any ways that a person can die Al kiddush Hashem when a true yid should be willing to do anything for Hashem.
How is it possible or what are ways that a person-in today’s generation-can be niftar Al Kiddush Hashem besides being Chas V’shalom killed by a terrorist?May 10, 2016 4:30 pm at 4:30 pm #1180812
SL, you wrote “Someone made a comment that sounded very much against the way we believe.” Yet mik nowhere suggested anything of that sort. He suggested Reb Elchonon was zoche to die al kiddish Hashem when the time came for him to leave this world; not that Reb Elchonon was zoche to die.May 10, 2016 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1180813
Btw. I was only “giving mussar” to the one who made that statement.
My comments were directed only to him or in response to your defense of him.May 10, 2016 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1180815
Avram in MDParticipant
I have to agree with Sam2 and Syag Lchochma here. The disturbing part of mik5’s first post was not his comments about what Rabbi Akiva and the Chofetz Chaim davened for themselves, but rather his assertion that the Chofetz Chaim’s tefillos resulted in Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s death.May 10, 2016 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1180816
Avram, see my last comment (prior to this one) where I address the point about Reb Elchonon.May 10, 2016 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #1180817
☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Avram in MD,
his assertion that the Chofetz Chaim’s tefillos resulted in Rav Elchonon Wasserman’s death
Why do you need to read it that way? Why not read it that his tefillos resulted in the z’chus, but that he died exactly when he was anyhow supposed to?
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