Beis Hamikdash

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  • #1439624

    icemelter
    Participant

    Why do many people (non-jews) argue about the location of the Beis Hamikdash? They claim that it was by the Gihon springs and in the City of David. Where do they get that assumption? Also they claim the Kotel to be a wall from a roman fortress. Did the romans use the Beis Hamikdash as a fortress? I know these people try to twist facts but on what basis do they claim this?
    Also I heard regarding the 3rd Beis Hamikdash that the measurements are bigger than Har Habayis. Any explanations?
    Whats the deal with the Temple Institute(מכון המקדש)? They raise money for their projects and building vessels which they claim will be used in the 3rd Beis Hamikdash? What makes them believe it will be used or even the correct type of vessels? Are they a reliable organization or just a bunch of over zealots living in an alternate reality?

    #1440251

    Redleg
    Participant

    There is no reason to believe, either from Jewish sources or contemporaneous Gentile sources, that the Beis HaMiqdash was anywhere but where the Dome of the Rock now stands. Also note that Bayis Sheini, as rebuilt by Hordus, was also bigger than Har HaBayis. That’s why he had to build the retaining wall (Kosel).

    #1440266

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Temple Institute(מכון המקדש) seems genuine. Their website and 3D tour of the Mikdash are spectacular. If you haven’t visited their Old City location, it is well worth it. They have made actual keilim as well as clothing for the Kohanim and give Kohen training classes.

    #1440276

    icemelter
    Participant

    So another question. If kosel is the retaining wall, does that mean the Beis Hamikdash actually stood on it? Would that mean it is part of the Bayis and cannot be touched as some believe?

    #1440287

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    It is a retaining wall for the Har HaBayis. The Beis HaMikdash stood on the Har Habayis. Just Google “map of har Habayis” and you will see the rough placement

    #1440286

    icemelter
    Participant

    @baltimoremaven- ya they seem like a good idea but how would they know for sure what the begadim looked like, or how the menorah looked, also don’t you have to be spiritually pure to make the keilim? Do they claim these will be used in the 3rd Beis Hamikdash? Wasn’t the menorah on 3 legs and not steps?

    #1440294

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    I’m not aware that the begadim have to be made exactly as they were previously. The Gemora discusses them in great detail and the Temple Institute people have spent a tremendous amount of time and energy to do it right. You should contact them with specific questions.

    #1440300

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    LC – They do claim that their Keilim will be used in Bais Shlishi, as otherwise it would be assur to make them because of LoSa’asun Iti – Lo Sa’asun k’dmus shamashi (R”H :כד), and making them b’tumah is not a problem because you can just be metaher them afterwords. However, their keilim are full of mistakes, and they simply don’t care – I went there with a list of 316 questions (not a typo – there really are that many problems that I noticed) on their keilim a couple of years ago, first asked the people there, then got sent to their kollel (they have a kollel, or at least they used to, upon whom they base (officially) everything they make), then to R’ Arielli (I think his name was), then said that I should give them my list of questions and they would get back to me. Eventually, they sent me responses to four questions, one of which agreed to the question, and another one which was cholek on a befarish Tos’ in Zvachim without a single Rishon to back them up. In one spot they even told me that they made it not like the gemara because, according to them, it wasn’t necessarily assur and the artists liked it more that way.

    So no, I’m not exactly such a fan.

    In addition, they really should have big problems with mi’illa, as a lot of the money given to them, at least by goyim, is given l’shem bedek habais. I even saw one woman give a hundred dollar bill saying that it was for “a stone for the Temple” once, and it went into the same cash register as everything else. There probably isn’t a problem to just look at their keilim though, as ein meila b’kol ubimareh, but they do other things as well, and I’m not so sure that paying would be muttar.

    BaltimoreMaven, I have never heard of them making clothing for Kohanim (other than their clothing on display, in which they make plenty of mistakes, assumptions about what certain materials and processes are in which we have no mesorah and we have many, many mochlokes achronim which they paskened on their own based on practicality (or ignored outright), completely ignore the Yerushalmi in Yoma, and decided, in seven different cases, to go l’kula against the gemara’s teiku (I wonder who they decided Eliyahu haNavi is?). It really is not practical to make these begadim anyway, as they have to be perfectly, and I mean perfectly (look at the gemara in Zvachim), fitted. I also never heard of these classes, but again I wouldn’t assume that they are anything real either – they don’t exactly have a good track record.

    Oh, and LC – there was a base to the menorah (I’m not exactly sure what you mean), and ny the northern wall of har habais there was (and still are remnants of, its a muslim school now but you can go there if you bribe the guard when there school isn’t in session if the police don’t catch you) a fortress on the northern wall of har habais which was first built by Yiddin but was later taken by the Romans.

    #1440338

    icemelter
    Participant

    Didnt it have a semi circle base and 3 legs or something like that?

    #1440420

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    It definitely did have a base, but, as far as I remember, there is nowhere in bavli, yerushalmi, medresh rabba or tanchuma, or breisa d’meleches hamishkan that says that it was semi-circular (or any other shape).

    #1440561

    icemelter
    Participant

    Is it really not allowed to go through the western wall tunnels? They go under the Mikdash?

    #1440576

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I was under the impression, as are many people I have met, that the Temple Institute believes we are allowed to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash ourselves (without moshiach).

    Either they really do believe that, or they play up the misconception in their ads because they know if brings in the dough.

    For those saying it was located elsewhere, those people are probably what you would call Biblical Nihilists. They base all of their theories and beliefs off of whatever is the opposite of the words of the Tanach, even if archeological evidence suggests otherwise. In secular society, as stupid as this approach is, it sells a lot of books. What I’ve always found ironic is that if you are purposely believing the opposite of what the Bible says, you’re actually STILL basing all of your beliefs on the Bible.

    #1440605

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Litvish, the tunnels do not go under the Mikdash. They simply follow the rest of the Kotel wall down to the northwest corner of the Wall. The last part of the tunnel was originally an open street. It appears as a tunnel because over the centuries there was construction against the wall and over the street

    #1440620

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Har Bayis is a Mountain as the name implies. Most mountains you have probably seen look like a hump and certainly not flat on top

    Originally har Bayin was not flat on top, top top was flattend by King Herod (There were actually 2 second temples, the original plain one and the Herod Temple)

    On top of Har Habayit is a plaza (You can google pictures of it) it doesnt look like a mountain at all

    The Kosel is the reataining wall used by herod to help make the top flat like the Plaza that it is

    #1441507

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    Where did you hear that it is assur to go in the tunnels? (Unless, of course, you hold that it is assur to go within the couple of feet closest to the Kosel)

    #1441585

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s assur, according to many shittas, to stick your fingers even inside the cracks of the Kosel.

    #1441686

    lesschumras
    Participant

    The shittah is held by rabbi Joseph. The wall has no Kedusha. It is simply a retaining wall

    #1442607

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    Why should it be assur to put your fingers in the cracks – it is definitely under ground level, as bedrock continues over fifteen meters above, so at the worst it should just have a din of michilos, which don’t have kedusha?

    Oh, and lesschumras (or should it be chumros?) – please stop stating things as blatant fact when they are actually speculation – there may be some supporting evidence, but it is still just speculation – in particular when, in fact, there are many rabbanim who are cholek.

    #1442657

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Uber, first, please follow your own advice about stating fiction as fact. Bedrock is not 15 metres above. Bedrock is actually well below the ccurrent plaza. The Kotel extends below the plaza level. I believe what your calling bedrock was the 1967 level. Keep in mind, over the centuries the area was filled with considerable debris, particularly after the churns. Each succeeding occupied ( Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Ottoman ) simply built on top of the old structures, raising the ground level.
    Who are the Rabbanim that are cholek the Kotel was built by Herod as a retaining wall? Have you been in the Tunnel? The path actually leads to the end where yo can see where the wall meets the bedrock.

    #1442799

    Uber_Chacham
    Participant

    Lesschumras, you seem to be misunderstanding me; let me explain what I meant: the ground level at the highest point of har habais is the lowest possible height of the kodesh hakadashim, which was not that much higher than the floor of the azara. The area underneath the floor of the azara (with the possible exception of the beis haparva according to Tosfos in yoma, but mipashtus even there Tos would agree) has a din of mechilos, which don’t have kedusha. Ergo, the inside of the walls at the current ground level of the kosel plaza (which is more than 15 meters underneath the highest point of bedrock on har habais) , as well as inside the tunnels, with the exception of the northernmost section of the western wall, the northern wall, and all but the southernmost portion of the eastern wall, should, at the worst, have a din of mechilos and not have kedusha of the azara.
    I’m sorry if my behirus before caused any confusion.

    In regards to which rabonim where chayish that it was a wall inside the boundries of har habais, whether of the heichal, the azara, the migdal, beis haknesses or beis hamedresh, or some other building there I’ll try and find the t’shuvos for you, there were a number of them written after 1967, as well as a couple from the times of the later achronim (although finding this kind of thing is much more up GOAN’s alley).

    Oh, and it’s kind of funny that you ask if I was ever there – I’m one of the people who hang out there all the time, normally in one of the section that aren’t open to tourists… but yeah, I know what it looks like over there.

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