January 9, 2013 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #607746Mimah nafshachMember
I don’t know offhand, but I’m pretty sure there are some sources for having solid Bekius in at least a good portion of Shas before Iyun (besides for it just being logical). One that comes to mind is a Gemara somewhere in Brachos that quotes the Pasuk “Haskeis Ushema – Has veachar kach Kas” see Rashi there.
Assuming this is the case, why is the Derech of Yeshivos not to do this?January 9, 2013 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #918915ChortkovParticipant
It has been a the derech of all Litvishe yeshivas since the beginning in Volozhin to do half a day iyun and half a day bekiyus.
But the question is: What is called iyun and what is called bekiyus? R’ Shach (Orchos Hayeshiva) says that bekiyus is not Chas VeSholom for flying and not understanding; you have a “Chiyuv” to see the Gedolei Achronim such as the Ketzos, R’ Akiva Eiger and the Oir Sameach. On the other hand, he says that one must not do less than 2 Daf a week. I find that very difficult!January 9, 2013 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #918916yytzParticipant
Probably not exactly what you’re looking for, but here’s an interesting chassidic source strongly favoring bekius (from R’ Nachman of Breslov, Sichos Haran #76):
“The best way to learn Torah is by studying fairly rapidly without analyzing every single detail. Study briskly and simply: seek to understand each thing in its own context without confusing yourself about how it relates to other subjects.
If there is something you do not understand, it is usually best not to dwell on it for too long. Keep going. In most cases you will eventually come to understand it in the light of what follows.
When you study, the main thing is to read the words aloud and in order. Understanding will then come of itself. Do not confuse yourself by trying to comprehend everything at once. You will have much difficulty and end up understanding nothing.
Simply focus your mind on what you are studying, reading the words in their correct order and with enthusiasm. Understanding will come of itself. What you do not understand at first, you will comprehend later. Even if there are things you cannot fully understand, this is unimportant because broad knowledge outweighs everything else.
By studying rapidly you will absorb a great quantity and you will be able to review each work many times. What you did not understand at first you will grasp the second or third time round, and eventually you will understand everything that it is possible to understand.
By following this path you will complete many volumes and have a better comprehension than one who is overly precise. Such a person can become very confused and may even come to abandon his studies completely, ending up with nothing.
Accustom yourself to learn quickly without too much attention to detail. This way you will truly acquire the Torah and cover enormous ground. You will be able to complete the Talmud, Codes, Bible, Midrash, Zohar and other Kabalistic texts and all the other sacred works.
It is unnecessary to review everything immediately. It is better to complete each volume as rapidly as possible from beginning to end and then to review the entire work as a whole.
Don’t be anxious if you are unable to complete everything. One can be a faithful Jew even without being able to learn at all. One can be a Tzaddik even without being a scholar. It is true that deep perception cannot be attained without Talmudic scholarship, yet even the simplest Jew can be a Tzaddik. ‘You are not obliged to complete the work, but neither are you at liberty to desist from it'(Avot 2:16).”January 9, 2013 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #918917Sam2Participant
It’s a B’feirush Gemara in Shabbos to learn Bekiyus first. (63a maybe; somewhere around there)January 9, 2013 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #918918ItcheSrulikMember
It’s an open gemara in Horiyos 14a and Brachos 601b (give or take) that bekius is more important. Period.January 9, 2013 9:25 pm at 9:25 pm #918919uneeqMember
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Finish first, explain later.January 10, 2013 12:23 am at 12:23 am #918920rebdonielMember
The Gemara does hold that Sinai is greater than Oker haRim.
The Sephardi approach historically seems to lend itself to bekiut more than pilpul, hence the opposition to codification found among those like the Maharshal, famously, in his hakdamot to Hullin and Bava Kamma.
Rav Herschel Schachter. Ari Lamm, Volume 1, Issue 3).
Yet, shiurim in YU are like iyun shiurim everywhere- the emphasis is to learn how the Rishonim think and learn, and to see how the Acharonim conceptualize this, as well.
My own derech in learning is to learn Gemara with Rashi and Tosfos, Rishonim, and Shulchan Aruch with the nosei kelim, and also to learn sugyos aliba d’hilchasa/ al derech pshat, seeing how the rishonim and later poskim learned these sugyos. This is the Sephardic approach to learning and is also popular in certain Ashkenazic circles, as well.
In addition, in the same interview, R’ Schachter explains that the laws of talmud Torah were completely revamped by the first Lubavitcher Rebbe, in the Shulhan Arukh Harav, who says that the
actual text of kol hatorah kulah, consists of the twenty-four Sifrei Hatanakh, the Mishnah, the Tosefta, the Bavli, the
Yerushalmi, Sifra, Sifrei,the Rambam, and the Shulhan Arukh.January 10, 2013 6:59 am at 6:59 am #918921Mimah nafshachMember
ItcheS: “It’s an open gemara in Horiyos 14a and Brachos 601b (give or take) that bekius is more important. Period.”
I didn’t see the Gemaras, but are you sure that bekius is more IMPORTANT or just that it takes precedence? Huge difference.January 10, 2013 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #918922ItcheSrulikMember
More important. See rebdoniel’s explanation. Obviously that should be 61 not 601.January 10, 2013 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #918924uneeqMember
Actually, it would be 63a, like what Sam said.January 10, 2013 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #918925rebdonielMember
Itche Srulik’s answer is halakhically correct, though. A person has a chiyuv to learn certain texts, and knowing halakha le ma’aseh is paramount.
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