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- This topic has 83 replies, 32 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 3 months ago by oomis.
January 10, 2011 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #594095
Can someone clarify if there is one Beshert or there are different ones depending on your level in yiddishkeit??
Are there many diffrent opinions on this and how do we know if we are marrying our Beshert??January 10, 2011 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #1058691CedarhurstMember
If your not Ashkenazi you can have more than one bashert (or be one of several basherts for your husband.)January 10, 2011 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #1058692
You ask some sfardi guy with a pom-pom hat. If you give him enough money, he will tell you to come back.January 11, 2011 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1058693Divorced_GuyMember
According to R. Mattisyahu Salomon if a person goes “biderech hayashor” and basically follows their family chinuch they get their Zivug Rishon. IF someone chooses their own path then often they get a Zivug Sheini “lifi maasav”, according to their level of yiddishkeit.January 11, 2011 12:32 am at 12:32 am #1058694
Thats what a lot of people understand the concept to mean.
Is there a way to know? Or if you are engaged/married it’s the right person?
Then how do people get divorced–did they not marry their zivug?January 11, 2011 12:39 am at 12:39 am #1058695
What does that mean to follow “your family’s chinuch”?January 11, 2011 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1058696bein_hasdorimParticipant
What’s if his family is modern orthodox,
and he is reigious orthodox? Will he get his zivug sheini
or rishon? and if sheini are you telling me sheini would be
a better zivug than rishon?
Want do you you think?January 11, 2011 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #1058697tobgMember
Based on your few recent posts it sounds like you are recently engaged. Does this person have the same goals as you? Are you comfortable with each others religious level? Do you look forward to seeing him?
If you answered yes to all of those then the rest is up to H’shem. Just daven and remember that at first it may be difficult to get used to a person but dont let silly fights get in the way of your relationship.
Be confident in knowing that you did your hishtadlus and the rest is up to H’shem.January 11, 2011 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1058698
thanks… so then you never really know????January 11, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1058699
I am also wondering about this. Is there a way to marry someone who is not Bashert and what exactly makes someone “bashert”?
Or should we not worry about this…?January 11, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1058700Tam Mahu OmerMember
Hi. Rabbi Elchonon Wasserman says in kobetz maamorim that the Rambam holds that since it is a mitzvah to get married it’s an inyan of bechira so the Rambam paskens that the gemora that one’s bashert is decided before one is born is not halacha lemayseh. Rather, one chooses whom he marries.January 11, 2011 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1058701
I like that answer. I am wondering-where does the inyan come not to daven to marry a specific person if one can potentially marry anyone and make it work?January 11, 2011 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #1058702Tam Mahu OmerMember
I never heard of it.January 11, 2011 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #1058704PosterMember
The one you marry is your bashert. After you get married you have to believe that Hashem put you with this person and this is meant for you. Some pple will say, “if I would’ve known this particular thing about my spouse beforehand I wouldn’t have married him/her.” Well, That is the reason you didnt know, because you were meant to be married.January 11, 2011 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1058705
lighitup – Moed Kattan 18b
memo – It’s not about knowing if you chose the right one. The question “Is this the one Hashem had planned for me?” should never be part of the equation in making your decision. It is impossible to know what Hashem’s plans are. As one choshuve person put it “I know people who were told by gedolim that this is their zivug min hashamayim and they got divorced. vaist duch ois divorce is also min hashamayim!”. You have to make your decision based on where you are holding in life. Does this make sense intellectually, hashkafically and emotionally for you in your life right now and can you see a future? If the answer is yes then the rest is up to your hishtadlus in treating each other and the priorities in your bayis properly and, of course, Hashem.January 11, 2011 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #1058706
Can someone please explain the significance of whtether the one you stand under the chuppa with is the one that was “announced 40 days before birth” basehert” etc.
Who really cares.
If both parties work at it they will imy”h have a wonderful marriage, if they don’t, they most likely won’t.
What difference does it make
especially since you, I, your family, your rov, or anyone else will never ever know what was said in the heavens.
WHY waste time and emotinaly energy on somehting completely out of your control???
As an aside, i’m always amused that people forget that that same gemara talks this house is for this person, this piece of land is for this person, in the same way that it talks about the daugther of this person for this man.
Why do people get so caught up with it?
Do you think that if you got it right you guranteed anything in life? do you think if you got it wrong you are assured of problems??
I just don’t get itJanuary 11, 2011 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1058707s2021Member
AAAAAAAAAA This topic is so foncusing! everything is bashert! u dont walk down the isle by mistake! just because ur spouce is ur bashert doesnt mean divorce is not bashert! what if i remarry? is that my bashert? or my “other” bashert? was my first bashert a mistake that was supposed to happen? what if i remarry 10 times? if i divorce my first mistake bashert what does that make a second bashert? Help!January 11, 2011 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1058708
Some people think and don’t marry any guy they go out with…
you might not understand but some people have to know if they made the right choice…
If your happily married you would understand that marrying just any Joe wont work…he’s got to be_______whatever you felt you neededJanuary 11, 2011 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1058709Divorced_GuyMember
R. Mattisyahu’s actual words were along the lines of the “straight way”, as opposed to someone who deviates. The family language was attempt at explanation. Of course what is the “straight way” fr each person is affected by their family, but by other factors as well. He was trying to explain why Eliezer had to check the middos of Rivka even after Avroham had a nevuah that Rivka, Yitzchok’s “bas zug” was born. He mentioned this in passing so I don’t have much more to say to explain his views.January 12, 2011 5:06 am at 5:06 am #1058710passion4musicMember
Someone please explain what being Sephardic or Ashkenaz has to do with anything?January 12, 2011 5:25 am at 5:25 am #1058711oomisParticipant
Someone please explain what being Sephardic or Ashkenaz has to do with anything?”
If by “anything” you mean shidduchim, the only relevance is that some sephardic and some ashkenazic minhagim differ greatly (most notably at Pesach time), and that might bother some people, especially if an ashkenazic girl marries a sephardic boy and must take on his minhagim of eating kitniyos.
There are also some social/cultural differences, I have noticed in some friends, but that is still up to the parties involved to see if it will be an issue for them. Some of those differences are more of an issue than others. Many people embrace these differences and very successfully blend the two cultures.January 12, 2011 5:57 am at 5:57 am #1058712cshapiroMember
im not sure if this is what your asking…but i just heard over shabbos at the ohr naava shabbaton that a person only has one zivug, soul mate, but many besherts, and it could be possible to marry ur beshert becauase of the timing as opposed to ur zivug….January 12, 2011 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1058713
Memo: you are clearly single….
1. “you might not understand but some people have to know if they made the right choice…”
If “getting your basheret” is to you the only way of knowing you made the right choice, then here is a mean secret… you will NEVER EVER know. Last I checked, prophecy went out of style 2,000+ years ago with the petira of chanaya mishoel and azarya.
2. “Some people think and don’t marry any guy they go out with.”
Actually, I would hope that is so for most people, not just some. I would just pray that the things people are thinking about are will “this person make a wonderful spouse for me and I for them”. “Will they be a great parent to our children”.
You know sensible questions like that, and not waste time guessing what was said in the heavens before they where born.
3. “If your happily married you would understand that marrying just any Joe wont work…he’s got to be_______whatever you felt you needed “
As I wrote before, you are clearly single. If you are happily married, you will realize that ongoing work to build, enhance, and improve the realtioship and home in any and every way possible is the key to being happily married. Of course, the more comptatible you are from the beginging the better the starting point is and perhaps will make the ongoing necessary work slightly slightly easier, but that’s all it is.
and here’s a secret. Most normal helathy people could have wonderful marriages with more than one person.
Of course once a person is married the attitdute should be this is THE one for me, but prior to getting engaged/married, that worry “is this person the ONE for me” is a tremendous hinderance to getting there.
NOT he’s got to be etc….January 12, 2011 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1058714mikehall12382MemberJanuary 12, 2011 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #1058715SacrilegeMember
Stop over-thinking it. It doesnt matter.
You like him/her enough to get married? Do it.January 12, 2011 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1058716
In my opinion, the concept of “beshert” is the most harmful concept to people’s dating and getting married.
Some people think that there is one person who you are meant to marry; and that if you marry her, it will be perfect; and if you don’t, it will be Gehenom.
If you think that, I don’t know how you can ever get married. How will you ever be certain enough that it is the right one to justify taking that risk.
Also, once you are married, there is no incentive to work on the marriage since if it is the right one there will be natural bliss and if not there will be natural Hell.
That is not the way it works. I don’t know what beshert is, but you are supposed to marry someone who you reasonably think you can live with, and work to make it happen.January 12, 2011 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1058717
omg! okay some people do think…sooo in the end of the day you will never know even while your married…
I guess I have to just deal with the fact there aren’t answers….just normally you’d like to think you had the clarity to make the right decision!!January 12, 2011 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1058718OfcourseMember
popa_bar_abba, “Some people think that there is one person who you are meant to marry; and that if you marry her, it will be perfect; and if you don’t, it will be Gehenom….”
Imho, brilliant!January 12, 2011 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1058719
No, I didn’t mean it it was a valid opinion. It is not.
I meant some people misguidedly think so and that it is a harmful belief.January 12, 2011 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1058720SacrilegeMember
“omg! okay some people do think”
Of course you have to think it through, but there comes a point when your thinking does more bad than good.
We aren’t going to understand the ways of Hash-m and if you try you are just going to make yourself crazy.
If it feels right it probably is. Have some faith in yourself.January 12, 2011 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1058721Jack DanielsMember
having the perfect marriage has nothing to with your “bashert” it has to do with trying to make it work.January 12, 2011 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #1058722
so you’re all basically saying this bashert concept is incomprehensibleJanuary 12, 2011 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1058723
So why is it discourages to daven to marry a specific person or to have everything work out with a specific person who has all the good qualities?January 12, 2011 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1058724sbMember
Beshert means: everything in life that happens was supposed to. So if you get married and get divorced then that’s what was beshert for you.January 12, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1058725Brooklyn YentaParticipant
lightitup: because sometimes when you’re in it you don’t realize certain things, and while you think you want this person, it may not be the one that’s GOOD for you. i daven that i should find the one that’s good for me, and that i should recognize it when it comes.January 12, 2011 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1058726
Memo: irrelevant is more accurate than incompreensible.
Sac: “If it feels right it probably is”
I would think that the decision should have to do with the seichel at least as much as how it feels. You probably meant to “feel” in the gut, instinct kind way that you internally now it’s right and are comfortable and at peace with the decision and NOT in the bells ringing etc kind of way.January 23, 2011 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1058728
What I am curious about is that some people have a harder time in marriage and feel naturally less compatible (usually personality wise) after some time in marriage and for others, it goes easier. Does that have anything to do with marrying bashert-or not?
Ie. I have a friend who married the first person that seemed good enough for her, but she is having a very hard time with different communication styles and she feels she should have been looking for more and dated him longer-and she is wondering if she married someone who isnt her zivug..January 23, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1058729
I would say it has to do with thinking that there is such a thing as beshert and that you will only be happy with one specific person and if you miss him/her, you will be unhappy, and if you get him/her, you won’t need to work on your marriage.
As I opined earlier in this thread.January 23, 2011 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1058730chayav inish livisumayParticipant
I think everyone has one zivug but its possible for sdomeone to take someone elses zivug by davening for it. But I don’t know how it works when a person is married and then the spouse dies and get remarried. Which one was the real zivug???January 24, 2011 6:59 am at 6:59 am #1058731
Popa put it beautifully.
In the dating process, there can be a concept of beshert in a different way than we are accustomed to think.
Rabbi Miller answerd yes and yes. Hashem wanted him to have an option and make the right decision. His parents were unable to influence him since it was his test.. Hashem wants us to choose the right one, meaning: based upon what (we assume) Hashem wants us to do. We still have free will. Thats why we get schar for choosing the right [type of] person.January 25, 2011 12:43 am at 12:43 am #1058732cookie7Member
In reply to the “mixed marriage” Sefardy-Askenaz, let me enlighten you. Most Sefardim in America are not eating kitniyos. Only certain ethnic groups- ie Persians and Syrians. Moroccans do no eat rice or kitniyos on Pesach. The Minhagim on Pesach of Moroccans are not too far removed from the Ashkenazim. Unfortunately, many people have false preconceived notions about Sefardim going back many generations. The majority of them send their children to the same yeshivos of their Ashkenazi brothers.January 25, 2011 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1058733
Every thing that happens in your life is bashert. There is no such thing as random. It is ALL from shamayim. Let’s say you have a couple who got married and after a few years, got divorced. Their children were meant to be born. Was it their zivug? I don’t know. But it is all bashert.January 25, 2011 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1058734
Thanks truthbetoldJanuary 25, 2011 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1058735
You’re welcome Popa
doodle jump: It’s all beshert. Do you believe that the couple getting divorced was beyond their control and just “beshert” or that they may have done things by their own bechira/free will which is wrong, such as getting divorced- or causing the breakdown for divorce?
Could we even go a step further and say that sometimes a person chooses to marry someone whom they RELIZE its not who HaShem wants them to choose as a spouse? If that person gets divorced due to circumstances out of their control, can that person still accept responsibility?
I think its yes and yes?
The choices presented to us are Beshert. How we respond is usually our responsibility.January 26, 2011 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1058736
truth be told – Your questions are somewhat valid but, and this is not a knock on you, pointless. The Rambam writes that a person has absolute bechirah. His words are “Neidah sheMaaseh HoAdam beYad hoAdam, VeEin HKB”H Moishchoi…”. Yes, a person has the choice to do wrong or right. However, as Yosef said to his brothers: “Atem Chashavtem Olai RoAh, Elokim Chashova LeToiva”. This means that no matter what we decide to do, Hashem has a way of working it out in a way that works for Him. All we can do is our best. If one will now ask, once we know that we have the choices, how can Hashem possibly know what will choose so that He may work it out, the Rambam writes (and this is a p’sak Halacha) that this answer cannot be understood by human beings. What I am trying to say is that this whole thread about Bashert is kind of moot. Perhaps this is what you meant to say, truth be told. All we can do is make decisions for ourselves and weigh them to see whether they are right or wrong. After that, it is all up to HKB”H. As an example which keeps showing up: Should 2 people get divorced? Only of it is the right thing to do in your situation. But aren’t you supposed to try and work on your marriage? Yes. Divorce is a last resort 100%. You should not take it lightly. But rest assured that if Hashem wants your marriage to crumble, C”V, you could be doing everything right and He will find a way to make it happen. What this means is that we should stop trying to figure out Hashem’s plans and just worry about what we are doing in our own lives. If we don’t, then cases like the example I just gave can make us crazy. Oh, I can’t wait to hear the feedback on this 😉January 26, 2011 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1058737
TBT: Sorry that I was not clear. I did end my comment too soon. Yes, everything is bashert but what we do with the opportunities that HaShem gave us is up to us.
Every person has a choice on how to use what has been presented to us.January 26, 2011 12:40 am at 12:40 am #1058738
Take the “Asorah harugai Malchus”, all the blood libels (and ensuing pogroms) that were caused by mechiras Yosef.
Yosef tried to calm his brothers down but, there were consequences for their behavior.
My beef is that certain terms have come from being one of emunah and bitochon to being defined quite contrary to that.January 26, 2011 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1058739
However, at what point do we say :” I really gave it my all”.
We should not know from it, but sometimes you hear terrible stories about unstable people. At what point do you say, “this is not healthy to any of us to continue. What if a person tried and tried for years to work on the marriage, but at the end, it was better for everyone to just end it.January 26, 2011 1:09 am at 1:09 am #1058740
I think you misunderstood me. Of course we are responsible for our actions. All I am saying is that the consequences don’t necessarily come out the way we would think. By mechiras Yosef for example, we would think that the brothers did something to hurt Yosef and therefore he should have been hurt. However, Hashem made those actions which they did turn into the very thing that made him powerful as he had foreseen in the dreams. The fact that the brothers chose the bad thing didn’t change the plan one bit. However, they could have chosen to do other things that were good and the same result would have happened – Yosef would have become a king and they would have bowed to him. Is this any clearer now?January 26, 2011 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1058741
But as a general rule, nowadays, people tend to be a little too trigger happy to jump into divorces. I know of several cases where what the party requesting the divorce sought to accomplish only worsened once divorced. A couple of cases with money… it was much worse once divorced.
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