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September 26, 2020 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1904734Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
It would be double unfortunate if we were not only punished but failed to learn lessons from the tragedy. This pandemic give us an opportunity to see what Torah learning actually is…
Baruch Hashem, we have lots of people in our days dedicated to learning. Some in school some after work, some instead of work. Do we always know what learning is real? Do we measure learning by number of hours spent? blatt learnt? people at the stadium at the siyum? ability to answer questions that were previously answered?
Seems like ability to deal with new circumstances would be a good way to see real Torah learning. In fact, Maharal attributes popularity of Bavli v Yerushalmi to Bavli’s method of addressing new situations. If Rabban Gamliel (possibly) had a telescope (Eruvin), we should expect no less from modern Talmidei chachamim.
So, now we have “outside” as “inside”. Someone who always smiled to people, now proudly walks without a mask, suggesting others to walk around if they prefer. Someone who is mahmir on medrabanan squared, now suddenly meikel on murder and hillul Hashem. Rabbis who do or do not guide their students appropriately… I see many cases of people behaving right also.
Going beyond the discussion of what specific problems we stumble upon – not knowing what exponential distribution is, not liking NY mayor, naivete, we can see where real Torah learning is – and make appropriate conclusions: from whom to learn, where to send children to learn, whose psak to follow, whom to support.
September 26, 2020 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #1904904n0mesorahParticipantTo use the Maharal as a litmus, most of today’s learners are Yerushalmi. Why is that surprising? There is little in our educational system that rewards ingenuity. Our two most common products, are the conformist and the fundamentalist. It is a testament to Our Holy Torah, that we have produced so few extremists.
September 27, 2020 1:03 am at 1:03 am #1904940Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant@N0mesorah – there is no doubt that American and Israeli Jewish educational systems saved a lot of people from assimilation. This worked great as an emergency measure, but I somehow doubt that Hashem is pleased with us using Torah SOLELY as a medicine to save Jewish people, while losing our ability to learn – and follow it – properly.
As to preventing extremists, it is of course an old problem mentioned in Beitzah that Hashem gave Jews Torah to stop us from extremism. Still, you may be under the influence of the “no true Scotsman” fallacy: yes, most Jewish extremists were not shomrim Shabbat, but where did they come from? If I recall correctly the story, Chafetz Chaim did not shake hand with the Rav from the place where Trotsky came from. And what do you call people who are bravely walking around without the masks as not extremists?
September 27, 2020 4:06 am at 4:06 am #1904945n0mesorahParticipantDear Always,
You misunderstood. I totally agreed with you. Maybe read my post again.
Those without masks, are mostly conformists following a few fundamentalists. With maybe one extremist.
September 27, 2020 4:13 am at 4:13 am #1904964charliehallParticipant“If Rabban Gamliel (possibly) had a telescope (Eruvin)”
That is in Yerushalmi Eruvin as well as Bavli Eruvin.
September 27, 2020 4:13 am at 4:13 am #1904965charliehallParticipant“I see many cases of people behaving right also.”
Me, too. In my neighborhood most people are wearing masks. Shuls are maintaining social distancing and lots of us aren’t going to shul at all. One positive from this is that I learned to blow shofar. 🙂
September 27, 2020 10:44 am at 10:44 am #1905067Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantre: telescope. More likely something like a protractor or an astrolab to accurately measure angles and convert into distances .. if R Gamliel were to have a telescope, Jews would be not Jews if they would not use it for commercial, if not military, applications. Early use of telescopes in Italy involved watching for long-haul ships to arrive and buying stock.
September 27, 2020 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1905070Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantn0mesorah, so you are suggesting that no mask movement is made of followers rather than of people taking a personal stand? Hard for me to figure out as I am obviously not planning to interview them in person. Whom are they following?
September 27, 2020 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1905072🍫Syag LchochmaParticipantAlways ask – you have a better chance if getting accurate information from a source than from a surmiser. Good rule of thumb.
September 27, 2020 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #1905100Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant@Syag, you have a point. I am, thankfully, not in a place where I can access a large random sample of non-maskers. You see online responses as well as I do. I heard several offline ones that are hard to summarize: one saying that those who care, can walk around him; another apparently believe in some conspiracy theories; one saying that there are more people dying in car accidents from the virus. My kids were able to convince this last teenager by quoting the statistics.
Maybe an only coherent argument is a claim that their community has herd immunity. It is also not fully thought-through. If you claim that your community achieved herd immunity, you are saying that your community has already killed and maimed the maximal number of people for this pandemic, with no apparent soul searching.
N0mesorah suggests that most of these people are simply followers. Then, we need to look at the leaders. What are they saying? Are they not able to lead, or are they afraid to lose control of the herd?
September 27, 2020 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #1905108🍫Syag LchochmaParticipantAlways Ask – your post was a gut punch, literally bringing me close to tears. I have been trying so hard to do whatever I can to bridge the divides among us, the black hat vs no hat, the zionist vs anti zionist. I have begged Hashem, people and online posters to be respectful, understanding and kind to each other in any way I was able.
As soon as nOmesorah (I can barely even type out that name) started taking hundreds of individuals and naming them an activist group I literally froze, begging Hashem to please not let this stupidity turn into yet another way to “officially” divide us.
While it is absolutely NO surprise that my words do not hold much weight in Shamayim, the idea that you not only buy in to this horrible notion of a “movement”, but even look to him for legitimacy as if he has any authority to speak out the motivations of these individuals is a huge loss for us.
May people find a way to emulate Hashem in their treatment and language toward and about other yidden.
Hashem should shower brochos, yeshuos and refuos on us this coming year starting now, and we should try our best to live up to deserving it.
G’mar Tov
September 27, 2020 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1905118Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantSyag,
I am with you on trying to bring all Jews together, omen. Those who disregard simple medical rules are kind of in the way – hard to being them even under a “big tent”, even if outside.I am especially bothered that places of Torah learning seem to not perform well.
How can you go through all machlokets between Abaye and Rava and not be able to compute the risks?
How can you learn that “saving one life saves the whole world” and then disregard risks you create.
What are the reasons?
Maybe if we understand them, we can correct. I am not claiming to know full answers, I am “just asking the questions”.September 27, 2020 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1905120🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant“I am with you on trying to bring all Jews together, omen. Those who disregard simple medical rules are kind of in the way ”
Maybe read that again and hear how silly that sounds
“What are the reasons?
Maybe if we understand them, we can correct. ”I have learned the painful way on here that this is not emes. No matter what words come out, nobody wants to understand them. The judgement, though not even deliberated or properly researched was sealed the minute they weren’t “doing it my way”
If someone thinks it’s wrong to go maskless, wear one and advocate. But stop pretending the berating is part of a holy cause.
September 27, 2020 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1905124Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantSyag,
I understand what you are trying to say. And I said what I wanted to say. They are _literally_ in the way when I walk in the street. They are also in the way of my non-Jewish neighbors. And their own relatives and Rabbis. On this note, my contribution to shalom bais isroel is to l’hathila walk on the pavement, where possible, and watch for cars instead of walking around people (not my idea, I saw a friend doing that). Everyone understand the walk-around and most do the same, but why not make it nicer.I am also not trying to berate anyone here. I am also not counter-demonstrating BLM or shouting “Shabbos” at a Reform temple parking.
I am just trying to discuss with people who share same understanding as I do – and there seems to be at least some, a majority in some places, a minority in others – what is for us to do and understand. In this post, I am skipping questions of daily halakhot – whom to count for minyan, whose shhita to trust, and going to what seems more important – whose Torah to learn?
September 27, 2020 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1905126🍫Syag LchochmaParticipantI am not understanding how you can be walking among swarms of maskless people who require you to walk in the street when you wrote above that you don’t have any maskless people to speak to first hand. I live in a fairly big city and have not had such an experience. There are people walking without masks but nobody has ever blocked my way or caused me to walk elsewhere. So i can’t really visualizevsuch a predicament, and if it exists in local pockets, coming on here and presenting it as a national issue to the point where you don’t even know whose torah to learn is terribly misleading.
I wish you gezunt.
September 29, 2020 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #1905381KGNParticipantI’ve been doing more introspection due to spending more time alone. I was able to note what mitsvos and middos I need to work on.
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