July 16, 2012 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #604134
Per Maran Hagaon HaRav Chaim Kanievsky shlit”a.
Sh’eilos Rav (p. 194):
Which is preferable – to daven with a minyan without a hat and jacket (beged elyon) or b’yichidus with them?
Is it enough to wear a tallis (gadol) over the shirt without a jacket (beged elyon) during davening?
L’chatchila it is not correct.
According to the din does a person have to cover his head with two coverings during davening or is the whole hakpada just to have a hat on and it is unnecessary to have another covering under the hat?
It is good to cover with two coverings.July 16, 2012 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #886049
And Halichos Chaim I:20-21.
Any questions can be addressed to Rav Chaim. Above is the exact quotation Rav Chaim put in the Sefer, without any added commentary of my own.
Rav Chaim is usually available after davening. His home is right next to the Lederman Shul, and it isn’t hard to get hold of him to speak to.July 16, 2012 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #886050more_2Member
Soppy- Sheilas rav is the gname of the Sefer?July 16, 2012 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #886051far eastMember
Choppy- has it occurred to u that not every single Jew holds like r Chaim?July 16, 2012 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #886052
far east: This thread is in response to Sam2’s denying that Rav Chaim holds like this.
more_2: Yes.July 16, 2012 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #886053☕️coffee addictParticipant
my mashgiach in Miami said the same thing (better to daven b’yachid) additionally when I was in Ner, R Aaron Feldman said the same thingJuly 17, 2012 12:08 am at 12:08 am #886054
Choppy: Hat and jacket is very different than hat. How do you know that the main Hapkada there is on the hat, not the jacket? And how does that change the fact that I heard from someone very reliable who heard from his mouth that he never said it’s better to Daven with a hat Bichidus than B’tzibbur without it?
(He didn’t personally write Sh’eilas Rav, did he? It was just someone who asked him questions and recorded the answers, right? Also, that last point is very, very strange. Why would he say you need two covers? There is no source whatsoever in mainstream Halachah for that. The only source I ever found was a Chabadnik who told me he saw it in an obscure Chassidish Sefer from the 19th century. I would love to ask R’ Chaim about that if I ever get the chance.)July 17, 2012 1:01 am at 1:01 am #886055dash™Participant
My high school principal said the same thing, until a few of us decided to arrange a scenario where there wouldn’t be a minyan of hat wearers. (It was a very small school.)July 17, 2012 2:01 am at 2:01 am #886056HaLeiViParticipant
Of course you should Daven Beyechidus with the hat. If you Daven in a Shul without the hat you’ll be self-concious the whole Davenning and that will ruin your Kavana.July 17, 2012 2:31 am at 2:31 am #886057
What happens if you don’t have a hat? Does that mean you never get to daven with a minyan? This could be a segulah for perishus and not talking lashon hara, which is especially appropriate in the 3 weeks.July 17, 2012 2:54 am at 2:54 am #886058
Hats are easily available.July 17, 2012 2:59 am at 2:59 am #886059
Locally all over the world or online?July 17, 2012 3:08 am at 3:08 am #886060
Hats are easily available.July 17, 2012 4:04 am at 4:04 am #886061NechomahParticipant
Sam2, If I remember correctly, R’ Aharon Kotler wore two head coverings. What could have been his source?July 17, 2012 4:10 am at 4:10 am #886062
Nechomah: I’m not saying you’re not allowed to. Just that there’s no source that anyone’s ever been able to show me that says it’s obligatory. If R’ Aharon was Makpid for it then I would love to hear someone who heard from him say why. I’ve been wondering for years now where this fairly common idea (which I think, based on everything I’ve ever seen, is a misconception) came from.July 17, 2012 4:24 am at 4:24 am #886063
I’d tread carefully with my words before insinuating that Rav Chaim perpetuated a misconception.July 17, 2012 7:58 am at 7:58 am #886064KozovMember
The Makor for the minhag to wear the Yarmulka under the hat is from the Mishna in Shabbos 120A.July 17, 2012 8:45 am at 8:45 am #886065
The sefer quoted. Was it writted by R’ Chaim, or was all its content reviewed and approved by him? The questions and answers recorded, are they exact word for word citations of both the question and answer or or they summaries of both? For example, do we know that the questioner did not say, I feel very uncomfortable standing there in shul, the only one without a hat or jacket, I feel that all eyes are on me and I have zero kavanah, may I daven beyechidus instead?
I saw with my own eye a response from R’ Chaim that contained all of two words in response to a question sent him. The question asked was “is it true what is recorded and repeated in the name of the Rav (the exact question is not one I want to get into)…. And his response was “lo hadam”. Please forgive me for being skeptical about everything “said by R’ Chaim”.July 17, 2012 10:11 am at 10:11 am #886066simcha613Participant
Lichorah he is only talking about Minchah and Ma’ariv during the week. No one wears a hat during Shacharis with their Talis and Tefilin. And on Shabbos, I think the Ramban says that davening with a minyan is D’Oraysa on Shabbos, so I find it hard to believe that R’ Chaim would say to be mevatel a D’Oraysa (according to some Rishonim) to wear a hat (especially since most married men don’t wear a hat during Shacharis with their tallis).July 17, 2012 10:55 am at 10:55 am #886067Disrael613Member
Forgive me for being ignorant, but are we saying that its better to miss minyan because you do not have a hat, then to daven with a minyan? Isn’t the halacha and the mitzvah to daven with a minyan and to cover your head. (with at least one head covering)July 17, 2012 12:10 pm at 12:10 pm #886068dullradianceParticipant
When I was a teenager, I wore a brown hat to daven. Is such a thing allowed b’zman hazeh?
When I was older, in the summer, I wore a straw hat to daven. Is such a thing allowed b’zman hazeh?July 17, 2012 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #886069
The last two questions were answered “it is good” “lekatchilah”- so it is not a directive and you could act ‘keminhag hamakom”.
As far as davening ‘beyechidus’ being better than davening with the tsibbur without a hat (or even a jacket) this is truly an astonishing opinion and I daresay that something was lost in the translation (as these are not Rav Kanievsky own words)July 17, 2012 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #886070
I’d have to side with Sam2 on this. This sounds very weird. I’m not a big posek, but I am quite certain also that davening with a minyan outweighs the importance of wearing a hat and jacket.July 17, 2012 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #886071EnglishmanMember
Sheilos Rav and Halichos Chaim are Rav Chaim’s seforim, reviewed and approved by himself. (Halichos Chaim are questions that were posed to Rav Kanievsky by Rav Yisroel Taplin of Lakewood, NJ, and the answers he received, with Rav Chaim’s review and haskama of all the content.)July 17, 2012 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #886072ChortkovParticipant
far east –
‘has it occurred to u that not every single Jew holds like r Chaim?’
I don’t know you, Mr Far East, but unless you are a ???? ????, finish ?”? ???? ???????? and ????? ???? [don’t kill me if ??? ???”? ????”? doesn’t finish ????? ???? yearly – i think he does but i’m not sure] annually, and have the ability to find mekoros from all over ??”?, ????, ???? and ?”?, nobody can argue with R’ Chaim Shlit”a. Do you have any ?? of R’ Chaim’s stature who argues???
simcha613: Can you find the Ramban that davening with a minyan is ????????? Very interesting… I’d like to see a quote, please!!July 17, 2012 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #886073
Kozov: Interesting. You mean the Gemara that says that a person would normally wear a Mapores and a Kovah? I’ve never seen one Sefer or Posek bring that down, and certainly not in regards to a Chiyuv by T’filah (it’s clear in the Gemara that that was just the standard style of dress at the time), but at least it’s sort of something. Thank you.July 17, 2012 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #886074
Yekke: There are other Poskim in the world who are on a level to disagree with R’ Chaim (I won’t judge who is where or anything, but we’ll just leave it at that). So yes, his statement that not everyone Paskens like R’ Chaim is valid.July 17, 2012 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #886075gavra_at_workParticipantJuly 17, 2012 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #886076
As far as davening ‘beyechidus’ being better than davening with the tsibbur without a hat (or even a jacket) this is truly an astonishing opinion and I daresay that something was lost in the translation (as these are not Rav Kanievsky own words)
This sounds very weird. I’m not a big posek, but I am quite certain also that davening with a minyan outweighs the importance of wearing a hat and jacket.
Not so astonishing or weird. As my R”Y put it, it’s a balance between the inyan of tefillah b’tzibbur and the inyan of k’vod malchus shoayim (my R”Y felt that k’vod malchus shomayim is more important, and that, indeed, one should wait until he has a hat even if he will lose out on tefilah b’tzibur).
I’ve seen quoted in R’ Elyashiv’s name (he should have a refuah sheleimah), that tefillah b’tzibur takes precedence over wearing a hat and jacket.
Obviously, if someone lacks appreciation for how a hat and jacket reflects k’vod malchus shomayim, he won’t begin to appreciate that it’s even a shaila.July 17, 2012 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #886077YusselParticipant
Are you really saying that Rav Chaim is the last word and NOBODY has a right to offer a different point of view?July 17, 2012 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #886078TheReaderParticipant
The Makor for the minhag to wear the Yarmulka under the hat is from the Mishna in Shabbos 120A>>
Where do you see that? It mentions a “kova shebarosho” a [single] hat…where do you see 2 hats?July 17, 2012 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #886079far eastMember
Excuse me Mr yekke2, but im not arguing on the greatness of R Chaim. I dont doubt hes the gadol hador. But first of all he didnt make a psak about this, he just answered a question with his opinion. ANd even if he did make a psak, that doesnt mean hes my posek. I have a rebbe i feel comfortable asking any question i have. That doesnt mean hes greater then R Chaim, it just means hes my posek. Not everyone has to agree with everything R Chaim saysJuly 17, 2012 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #886080
Rav Yisroel Taplin. Now we have a source for these statements. I will look him up and ask him directly.July 17, 2012 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #886081
yekke2 (and others)- Clearly, R’Chaim Kanyevski os one of the ‘gedolei hador’ but this psak is so unusual and goes against the grain of what we know that I must continue to question its veracity. Please check the RAMBAM , hilchos tefillah, perek 8, mishne 1, and you will see what importance the Rambam attaches to tefilla betsibbur. (BTW- tefilla itself is “midoraisa” but not the nussach or the fact of davening with a tsibbur) Now, check the Shulchan Aruch siman 91-siman 1-6 and you will see that there is a requirement to cover one’s head during tefilla and to act “keminhag hamakom” in matters of clothing. Clearly, though, it would be an absolute surprise taht the fact of davening with a tsibbur is LESS than using a hat or jacket- which is ,at best, a minhag hamakom.July 17, 2012 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #886082ChortkovParticipant
Far East –> Sorry – it sounded like you were saying that you don’t need to listen to R’ Chaim Shlit”a. If you meant something else, I apologize. I didn’t mean to undermine any other posek!!!July 17, 2012 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #886083
kozov- there is absolutely no indication from shabbos 120A that one has to wear two hats. I have no idea where you get this from the mishne or the gemoro. On the contrary, from halacha, you clearly see that one covering is enough -see shulchan aruch siman 91-mishne 3-4-5.July 17, 2012 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #886085gavra_at_workParticipant
“This sounds very weird. I’m not a big posek, but I am quite certain also that davening with a minyan outweighs the importance of wearing a hat and jacket.”
As I said in the old thread, it is Offen a Mishna Berurah. K’Deerech SheHolchin B’Rechov.July 17, 2012 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #886086oomisParticipant
Let me get this straight – you believe that oen should daven b’yechidus WITH a hat, rather than in a minyan without one? We are always taught to daven in a minyan, because while our own zechuyos may not be sufficient for Hashem to answer our tefilos with a “yes” it may be that someone else who is davening is VERY worthy, and in his zechus Hashem will show Rachamim to the less worthy person as well.July 18, 2012 2:15 am at 2:15 am #886087
Which is preferable – to daven with a minyan without a hat and jacket (beged elyon) or b’yichidus with them?
Surely there is more to this question. Isn’t the obvious answer, to go home, get your hat and jacket, and daven with the next minyan?July 18, 2012 2:50 am at 2:50 am #886088
What happened, apushatayid? Why are you sowing doubt. You promised us you’d be calling Rav Taplin. Will you share with us what he tells you, regardless of what it is?July 18, 2012 2:50 am at 2:50 am #886089
what happens if there is a blizzard?July 18, 2012 2:52 am at 2:52 am #886090
Let me get this straight – you believe that oen should daven b’yechidus WITH a hat, rather than in a minyan without one? We are always taught to daven in a minyan, because while our own zechuyos may not be sufficient for Hashem to answer our tefilos with a “yes” it may be that someone else who is davening is VERY worthy, and in his zechus Hashem will show Rachamim to the less worthy person as well.
It’s okay, Oomis, you don’t ned to wear a hat to daven. 🙂
And yes, this is a serious shaila. Although Rav Elyashiv is quoted as saying that it’s more important to daven b’tzibbur, R’ Chaim is quoted as holding the reverse, and he is not the only one who holds this way.July 18, 2012 3:00 am at 3:00 am #886091
Surely there is more to this question. Isn’t the obvious answer, to go home, get your hat and jacket, and daven with the next minyan?
Correct. The question assumes that there is no later minyan available.
Although I would personally wait for my hat and jacket even if it meant davening b’yechidus (as per my R”Y, an adam gadol and posek, who told me so), there are certainly grounds to argue. Either way, you are correct that according to all of the opinions mentioned, one would be required to go get his hat and jacket and find a later minyan, and not daven at a more convenient minyan without his hat and jacket. Tzitz Eliezer, however, has grounds to be meikil further, based on the fact that it is no longer typical to wear a hat in front of a human king.July 18, 2012 3:26 am at 3:26 am #886092
DY: R’ Chaim is misquoted from the source at the beginning of this thread. What if one had a jacket but no hat? There is no Hechrech from here how R’ Chaim would Pasken.July 18, 2012 3:46 am at 3:46 am #886093
R’Shlomo Zalman zz’l clearly thought differently. Halichos shlomo, perek 2, halocho 15. He clearly says that to daven with a tsibbur trumps the hat and jacket. (Full disclosure: I found this in the mihsne berurah mehuderes , that has many hagohos of later poskim)July 18, 2012 4:39 am at 4:39 am #886094
There is no misquote. It is directly from the Sefer Sh’eilos Rav, verbatim. And Halichos Chaim says the same thing. Maare Mekomos in the OP and second post.July 18, 2012 6:06 am at 6:06 am #886095KozovMember
It’s not like you wouldn’t stay if you could for Kadish Kdusha and Barchu without a hat according to that Sefer.
TheReader, it also mentions ?????? – ????? ???? ??”?, or ????? ??”? or ??????-????? according to the ????.July 18, 2012 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #886096
R’ Chaim is also quoted in the sefer ????? ????? ?????, quoting the sefer ??? ?????, as giving precedence to a hat (and it specifically says hat).
I know, likut seforim aren’t always reliable, but when you have multiple sources, there’s more credibility.July 18, 2012 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #886097
Sowing doubt? Before I call Rav Taplin, I want to verify that the question quoted here is exactly as it is quoted in the sefer. For that, I must find the sefer. Would be foolish to ask the Rav about something in his sefer, only to learn that I dont even know what it says in the sefer.July 18, 2012 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #886099
Choppy: People quote R’ Chaim as saying that Davening with a hat trumps T’fillah B’tzibbur. Even according to the quote in the OP, how do you know the main thing that beats T’fillah B’tzibbur there isn’t the jacket?
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