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Sometimes, halachic questions can lend themselves to opposing positions. In some of those cases, it might occur that one position is important to a specific group of people, while it is either unimportant to others, or the others to whom it is important are not a unified group. When this happens, it is likely that halacha will move in the direction of the group with a specific interest, because even if poskim were divided 50/50, only one side will be publicized.
Is there any way that rabbonim or the public can deal with it? Is there any way to deal with it post-facto without undermining mesorah generally?
Here are two examples, but please do not address the substance of the examples, because that is not my point.
Assume it’s a question whether one may copy music for a friend. Half the poskim in the world say he may, and half say he may not. The musicians who are worried about losing money will band together to publicize the word of the poskim whose psak supports them. They may ask those poskim to speak publicly on the issue, or they may issue kol korehs, etc. Meanwhile, half the poskim in the world think it’s muttar, but there is no one who is going to push for an asifah to proclaim the permissibility of it.
Another example could be Kashrus. (I have raised the issue before WRT believing that hashgacha is necessary at all, but this is slightly different.) Some entity either needs hashgacha or doesn’t, or is kosher or not – rabbinic opinion is divided. But the mashgichim and the company who produce the more kosher version have an incentive to push for the questionable version to be proclaimed assur, while no individual has any reason to present the opposing side.
Being that your question seems more a Hashkafa question than Halacha I think it is OK for me to give a possible answer.
We see that the Halacha follows Beit Hillel over Beit Shami even though Beit Shami had the greater scholars. The reason is because Beit Hillel had more Talmidim and we go after the Rov.
Another point is that sof kol sof the final outcome is min hashamiyim. Even though many big poskim came out against Chalav Stam, in the end we see that Chalav Stam is generally excepted at least on a Bidaeved level (such as materna for a baby).
Perhaps the Sefer, “In Search of Torah Wisdom” by Rabbi Yisroel Miller might answer your question.
Hope this helps
“Assume it’s a question whether one may copy music for a friend. Half the poskim in the world say he may, and half say he may not. “
Not the best example because in most cases it would be illegal under secular law. Even if you limit the scope of dina malchutcha dina, people have gotten fined for doing things like that and if you do it on a large scale you can be prosecuted. Better to pay for the music.
The only bias I see here is your own.
Charlie, I would think that most people reading this are more interested in small scale copying, which is pretty much entirely on the honor system.
VM, I think a solution to this is for large scale halachic issues to be decided by the recognized gedolei haposkim, who are presumed to be above personal bias (see Chazon Ish, Emunah Ubitachon, 3-30, who says in no uncertain terms that accusing chachomim of personal bias is considered mal’ig al divrei chachomim).
Despite the attention given to any particular side, it is usually obvious that the matter is subject to debate. Therefore one asks his posek, and doesn’t care what “most” people are doing. What’s the issue ?
Statement above regarding cholov stam – generally, as in what people do – what does that show ? Generally, as in by most poskim ? Nope.
VM, I didn’t think it was about gedolei haposkim being biased, ch’v.
My point was that I don’t think gedolei haposkim are shy about giving their psak, so anyone with a bikush haemes should be able to get an unbiased psak.
You actually asked two different questions, and I think Logician and I each answered a different one.
I was answering for the rabbanim. I think it’s their responsibility, and that they have the ability to, find out what the consensus of the gedolei haposkim is, and I am suggesting that they generally pasken accordingly.
Logician is taking the next step, referring to the part of your question dealing with the public. It is up to each individual to choose a competent posek who is not swayed by external factors. If an ehrlich person chooses a posek based on competence rather than how meikil the posek is, and the posek avoids being swayed by people with agendas, we should hopefully arrive at your desire, an unbiased halachic system.
VM: “it is likely that halacha will move in the direction of the group with a specific interest”
This isn’t a correct assumption, as when each individual asks his own Rov, his own Rov will pasken based on his own psak of which shitta he holds of. Even if that isn’t the “popular” shitta or the one being propagated by interested parties.
So your fear is unfounded.
I think the biggest fear is that Poskim are Noigeh Bdovor. Many times they can’t come to the truth!
Health, be very careful with that. Depending on whom you refer to, you could be guilty of being mal’ig all divrei chachomim.
I’ve only seen people making this claim, for some odd reason, when their own interest would have been better served with a different psak.
“If an ehrlich person chooses a posek based on competence rather than how meikil the posek is,”
Beware also of choosing a posek based not on competence but rather on modern day chumros.
Also beware of ignorantly labeling something a modern day chumrah when it’s not.
DaasYochid: It is commendable that you are defending Poskim for their psak halocho. But to say that there are never any “negios” in psak is totally unrealistic. Even in Moshe rabbeinu’s time, he had to choose carefully!
DY: I still remember the day I was called “an untrustworthy modern liberal” because I eat Gebrochts.
I have defiantly seen people be biased when it comes to things.
I have seen certain more Charedi groups not eat other others Kashruth (The OU had nothing to do with it) It was all Chassidic
ROB, I am not defending all “poskim” as being unbiased. But you should look at the Chazon Ish I quoted.
‘scuse me, Berliner Rabbiner.
What are you accusing Moshe Rabbeinu of? That he C”V altered one iota of Halachah, of Dvar HaShem to make it fit in more comfortably to the “modern, common-folk”? HaShem says of him “??? ???? ???? ???”. Kindly pick on someone else (someone you’re not mechuyav in kvod Rabbo, kvod Talmid Chacham. Someone you’re not mechuyav to be dan lkaf zchus, someone who it’s mutar to speak lashon hara)
“Also beware of ignorantly labeling something a modern day chumrah when it’s not.”
That’s what your Rav is for.
LF, I don’t assume ROB ch’v meant to cast aspersions on Moshe Rabeinu, rather to point out that he had to choose, for the batei din, unbiased people.
That’s what your Rav is for.
To ignorantly label things modern day chumrahs when they’re not? No, that’s not what my Rav is for.
Little froggie: What are you talking about? Did you hear Parshat Yisro read a couple of weeks ago? No one is talking about Moshe rabbeinu himself.
On the surface, VM, what you’re saying makes sense. What makes it worse is that many seem to only go to the gedolei haposkim in order to get “yes-man” approval for what they already believe (think the famous Rav Steinman video- gaavah gaavah gaavah! Well, I guess that one didn’t work). Like you say, once someone has come out in support of one side, especially if it’s the more chumradik side, it can be futile to come out on the other.
On the other hand, people do ask their own rabbanim. If they don’t and rely on circulating kol koreis, that’s a problem. I’ve known many people who have thought that the halacha went one way and then actually asked a posek- I know that R’ Elyashiv zt”l answered my grandfather’s sheilah in a way he never expected. The mishna says aseh lecha rav, not aseh lecha pashkevil. Every situation is different and sometimes you need a real live human on the other end of the line to really answer the question.
Bottom line IMO: If what you say is really true, it shows more of a problem with the people than with the poskim. You shouldn’t be able to be convinced of a de’ah or derech via ad campaign.
I’m so sorry RoB. I didn’t understand what you wrote.
I think there is some truth to the notion that some rabbonim pasken based on personal biases. Hopefully most do not, but follow the Halacha in the spirit in which it is meant to be followed, always taking into account mitigating factors.
I once asked a Rov an opinion regarding a shailah about what to do if someone using the mikveh could not get all her nail polish off, and there was a chashash of her chalilah not using the mikveh at all, as a result. The Rov’s terse response? “What do women need to wear nail polish for? That’s just nonsense!” So a) that did not answer the shailah and b)it reflected a personal bias that was not conducive to ascertaining the actual halacha in the given situation.
A rov, like most human beings, cannot help but allow his personal feelings to once in a while encroach upon his judgment. If one truly thinks that a particular thing is not good, he will judge accordingly, even when he might not actually be correct. Nevertheless, if you ask that Rov a shailah, be prepared to follow his p’sak.
My own Rov ZT”L, when asked about something of which he personally did not hold but which there was a 100% permissibility, would say, “Some people do it and some don’t. I don’t.” He was machmir on himself, but always looked for the legitimate and non-loophole proper way to be meikeil for someone else. I once asked him about that in response to a kula that he gave me on a personal shailah that I was sure would go in a different direction. When I expressed my surprise at the kula, he told me that anyone could say something is assur. It takes real knowledge of Torah to be able to say when it’s “Muttar.”
Little froggie:thanks for your comment.I checked what I wrote and saw how you misunderstood.I meant moshe rabbeinu choosing PEOPLE carefully.You read it as choosing psak.
DY, so what is your Rav for?
DY -“Health, be very careful with that. Depending on whom you refer to, you could be guilty of being mal’ig all divrei chachomim.”
I was talking about some Poskim nowadays. Do you think the Torah when it says –
????? ???? ???? ?????? “
was only talking about Moshe Rabbenu times?
Sam, DY: I still remember the day I was called “an untrustworthy modern liberal” because I eat Gebrochts.
C’mon, I could have come up with a better reason than that to call you an untrustworthy modern liberal. 😉
DY, so what is your Rav for?
Don’t we all need someone to blame when we want to be meikil? 😉
I was talking about some Poskim nowadays. Do you think the Torah when it says –
????? ???? ???? ?????? “
was only talking about Moshe Rabbenu times?
You should really take a look at what the Chazon Ish says about that. Emunah Ubitachon 3: 30.
Oomis: you and I live in a different world! We are dating ourselves!Today,’s generation is well meaning but cannot nderstand the outside world!
DY: So could I. Well, I think I’m somewhat trustworthy. “Modern” and “liberal” are relative terms.
Veltz Meshugener,
My question is similar to Logician’s:
Therefore one asks his posek, and doesn’t care what “most” people are doing. What’s the issue ?
If I have a halachic question or situation where there are differences of opinion, I ask my rav a shaila. He takes my whole situation into account and gives me a p’sak.
One thing that I learned after becoming frum (and this may be unique to my own situation and rav) is that it is better when asking a shaila to be very specific about the particular situation prompting the shaila with a goal to get a p’sak just for that situation, rather than phrasing the question in broad terms to seek a general ruling. That way, the answer I receive is tailored exactly to my situation, “bias” free. If I then feel that I need a more general answer to address future instances, I follow up by asking something like, “and if this happens again, what should I do?”
DY -“You should really take a look at what the Chazon Ish says about that. Emunah Ubitachon 3: 30.”
I don’t have one. But if it’s a general concept – then I agree.
I was talking about specific cases that they put their Negius first!
I don’t know who or what cases you refer to, but maybe it’s your negius? Or maybe, even if they were wrong, it wasn’t due to bias, just legitimate opinion?
halacha is biased, to the ratzon hashem. there may be disagreements exactly what that is sometimes, but that is not due to any negative, c’v, with the torah or the ratzon hashem.
Oomis: you and I live in a different world! We are dating ourselves!”
ROB, I am an old married lady, and the only person I am dating is my hubby!!!! 🙂
I know many Rabbonim who have negius to what Hashem wants and won’t be meikel or give a heter when its really against accepted Halacha. In my experience the people who complain against Rabbonim are usually not the ehrilche people looking to be oveid Hashem.
I’m not saying every Rav or any Rav is perfect they aren’t they are human beings who are trying their best to make sure the Torah is upheld in a generation where people want heteirim and segulos and easy ways out.
I don’t get the fright. Halacha does not go out on billboards. They get decided through Tshuvos. You can’t quiet Reb Moshe, no matter hw much noise you’ll make. But there are trends that take affect over time, which I don’t think is anything scary.
Oomis:thanks for you reply. You know what I meant!(of course)We are a generation older than most posters here and we remember simpler times!
DY – I answered you, but it got deleted.
I’ll repeat from before –
???? ???? ???? ?????”
“????? ???? ???? ??????
Health, you don’t own a copy of Emunah U’Bitachon? You should really get yourself one. It’s a thin unassuming Sefer that won’t take you long to read. The Hebrew is, for the most part, basic and uncomplicated. Internalizing the concepts is the work of a lifetime, and not simple at all. But it will definitely get you headed in the right direction. I found it amazing to see how a Gadol from a different world could speak to the heart of someone so far removed from him intellectually, spiritually and geographically.
Health, the Chazon Ish precisely deals with that passuk. He says it’s a chok, not a mishpat, and does not apply where the chacham is permitted to use his judgement.
You should make the effort to get hold of a copy. It’s worth it. (It’s not on hebrewbooks, or I’d link you.)
ROB – yep, I guess we iz. But every generation has a kernel of the previous one in it.
“Sam, DY: I still remember the day I was called “an untrustworthy modern liberal” because I eat Gebrochts.
C’mon, I could have come up with a better reason than that to call you an untrustworthy modern liberal. 😉 “
LOL!
golfer -“Health, you don’t own a copy of Emunah U’Bitachon? You should really get yourself one.”
Are you sponsoring a copy for me?
DaasYochid -“does not apply where the chacham is permitted to use his judgement”
What does this mean?
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