January 10, 2010 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #682656AZOI.ISParticipant
AZ, I so agree with you about everything you’ve said.
We are all playing “Monday Morning Quarterback”, when we say that the “leftover” girls, have more issues than the married girls. Every time older guys date and get engaged to (much) younger girls, they are lessening the chance of the slightly younger girls of finding a husband. Then we scrutinize these girls, analyze meaninglessly, and say they must have had more issues.
Sad.January 11, 2010 2:21 am at 2:21 am #682657
Therefore? Stop asking so many questions, including, how old is he/she.January 11, 2010 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #682658
Thanks to The NASI Project many many shadchanim report that age (with in reason) seems to have become almost a non factor. Boys 23 are dating girls there own age – without even thinking twice about it.
Halevai Vaiter!!January 11, 2010 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #682659
Saying leftover girls have issues (something any good shadchan will confirm) doesn’t contradict the need for NASI and similar initiatives. One is a “cheftza” issue, one is a “gavra” issue.January 11, 2010 7:33 pm at 7:33 pm #682660
Neither are “issues”. Just narishkeiten that people have.January 11, 2010 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #682661
Call it what you want.
Without a numercial imbalance the vast majority of these girls would be married – just like their male counterparts (with the same “narishkeiten”) are married.January 12, 2010 1:29 am at 1:29 am #682662AZOI.ISParticipant
AZ, “their male counterparts (with the same “narishkeiten”) are married”.
How right you are.January 12, 2010 3:31 am at 3:31 am #682663
Unbalanced. The word is so appropriate in this topic.January 12, 2010 6:41 am at 6:41 am #682664
“Without a numercial imbalance the vast majority of these girls would be married”
Simply untrue. I know many older girls who couldn’t get married if they had 100 boys to date.
In any event, your “age gap” solution will only help the next generation of singles. For those who are already in their 30s who want to do something to have a chance, working with a mentor to make themselves “marriageable” is the best, if not only, solution.January 12, 2010 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #682665
You are correct that the age gap concept primarly is a help going forward.
However, there is a trickle up effect as well. If 25 year old boys marry 24 year old girls girls. Then the 28 year old boys will more likely marry close to their age and not the 24 year olds
Mentors are definitely a help for many individuals it just doesn’t solve the macro, it helps the micre but EVERY single person it helps it a entire universe.January 12, 2010 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #682666
“I know many older girls who couldn’t get married if they had 100 boys to date”
Hard to believe since you aren’t a navi.
In any event there are most likely similar numbers of boys/girls who wouldn’t get married event if they had 100’s of dates. If anything there would be more males in that category than females-as the gemara attests.
“tav l’meisav tan du, mi’l’meiysav ar’milu”
And yes- MentorsJanuary 12, 2010 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #682667
All you have to do, AZ, is speak to any real shadchan to know that what I’m saying is true. There are plenty of reader’s write letters to the Yated, either wittingly or unwittingly making this point.January 12, 2010 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #682668
Jothar: Saying leftover girls have issues is an absolutely subjective statement. I have probably spoken to more shadchanim than you can count. Do they claim that the girls have more issues than the boys??? because that what you are implying and there is no basis for that.January 12, 2010 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #682669
Girls might have 100s of dates, but unless even ONE of those 100 boys is an appropriate shidduch for that particular girl, it won’t work. Also, and let’s be honest here, even if she goes out with 100 and LIKES them all, THEY have to like her, too. I know lovely girls, really sweet, pretty, charming, intelligent, but the guys they liked from their several shidduchim, did not give THEM a second or third chance. The girls, on the other hand, went out with boys who were “iffy” to them after the first date, and did in fact give them a second and even third date, to be certain of their decision to not go forward. Metaphorically speaking, it always takes two to tango, and if one of the partners refuses to continue to dance, the other one cannot get out on the floor.January 12, 2010 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #682670
az: “Hard to believe since you aren’t a navi”
chochom adif mi’NaviJanuary 12, 2010 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #682671
Since you claim the girls are single because they have “issues” that preclude them from getting married.
Can I ask a simple question
Who are the boys marrying?
There should loads of normal regular older guys (basically equal in number to the older single girls) except that the girls are single becuase they have “issues” and the boys guys, Nebach no one for them to marry.
Who did the boys marry?????January 12, 2010 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #682672
Unbalanced.January 12, 2010 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #682673
az: “Who did the boys marry?????”
That’s simple, the normal younger girls.January 12, 2010 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #682674
hello99: Aha. In other words you have discovered that the 19 year olds are all normal and the 22 year olds all have issues).
EDITEDJanuary 12, 2010 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #682675mom12Participant
I redd many shiduchim…the bottom line is no one wants to give in to ANYTHING
and this is what a marriage is..January 12, 2010 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #682676tzippiMember
Sorry, since the other thread was closed, a message to AZ:
It is appalling that people don’t pay shadchanus, if not the full amount something substantial, WHEN A SHIDDUCH GOES THROUGH. There are mekoros for the need to do it. I had no idea that people stiffed the shadchanim without explaining themselves or trying to work out something (head checks?).
And yes, this is as important as tuition.January 12, 2010 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #682677
AZ: first of all we are discussing girls in their 30s, not 22. Second of all, I never said ALL younger girls are perfect, but the ones who are have competition from boys of various ages.
EDITEDJanuary 12, 2010 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #682678mom12Participant
NOBODY IS PERFECT–not the boys and not the girls
the question is which IMperfection can you live with!January 13, 2010 4:34 am at 4:34 am #682679
There are plenty of boys with issues too. That is why many older girls prefer to marry divorced guys rather than the older single men, who they perceive as damaged goods.
And as i said earlier, a mediocre employee has a much easier time landing a job in a boom economy then in a steep recession. Many times, the boys with issues are taken anyway. If the magazine rack is full, you go for the nicest copy. if the rack is down to one tattered magazine, you take that tattered magazine.January 13, 2010 11:37 am at 11:37 am #682680PosterMember
I hope you guys are exaggerating when you say pple date 100 girls/boys. How many do pple actually date? I have a cousin that dated 17 girls before he got married. We thought it was because he just dated anyone that gave him a yes. Do pple actually date over 20-30 prospects? One family member dated 4 my sister 9 friends 4-7 assuming this average…January 13, 2010 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #682681
Thank you very much for explaining eloquently how the Age Gap (Numbers problem) directly impacts the entire shidduch process.
Boys choice of girls = booming economy
Girls choice of boys= steep recession
Thus boys with “issues” taken anyway.January 13, 2010 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #682682
Who said it has anything to do with age? Perhaps it has to do with the products that come out of our chinuch system. Way to many “flawed guys” for the girls to choose from. Fix the chinuch system and we wont be in a steep recession when it comes to the availability of “good” boys. Tightening the age gap masks this bigger problem, at best.January 13, 2010 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #682683
If the problem is the lack of “good boys” as u suggest (due to failures in the chinuch system). Then there should be a boatload of “flawed guys” out there, equqal in number to the older girls.
Buddy- It just aint so.
I therefore ask.
Who are are the “flawed guys” marrying??January 13, 2010 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #682684
Who said they are marrying?
Perhaps they never made a crisis out of themselves, so you dont pay much attention to them.
I really cant discuss this with you any longer, as you clearly are wearing blinders.January 13, 2010 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #682685
In other words you believe that there are just as many older boys out there as girls.
Well well well.
The Data from the girls HS Alumni has been collected. The data from the boys HS Alumni is in the process of being collected.
Here’s one school for starters (the first one in so far)
Boys that have been dating between 5-10 years
240 graduates- 8 still single= 3%
The girls schools polled form similar communities were on average 13% still single
As more boys HS data becomes available I will be glad to share
just to make sure no one is wearing blinders..January 14, 2010 12:26 am at 12:26 am #682686
Flawed guys are either marrying flawed girls, or perfectly nice girls from whom they have been so far successful at hiding their flaws. (Or vice versa.) It all comes out eventually. Hence (among other reasons), the rising divorce rate among the young.January 14, 2010 4:38 am at 4:38 am #682687
az: add this to your statistics, out of 48 girls in the class at one school at 25 years old 100% married, 33% already divorced.January 14, 2010 4:51 am at 4:51 am #682688
AZ. What percentage of 19 year old boys are even thinking of dating, let alone dating? 20?. 21? 22?
If people want to believe in a so called crisis, invent THE cause, and propose what they believe is THE solution to THE problem and declare that they have THE solution, fine. Imy”h in 7-8 years when my children enter this stage in life I’ll be sure to stay abreast of the crisis of the day, ITS cause and THE solution.
Until then, I think I’ll try to understand why the 2 single girls ages 19 and 20 who live on either side of me keep saying yes to the 23-25 year olds and not the 21-22 year olds. Perhaps I should show them your posts and assure them that they will find their bashert among the younger group of guys because they are doing their part in becoming part of THE solution to THE crisis by dating younger guys and leaving the older guys for the older girls.January 14, 2010 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #682689
Hello99: That is a very important and scary number. you would due the community a tremendous favor if you did serious research and tracked similar stats from schools across the country and tried to determine what it going on. Is that school an anomaly or is that the stat for many schools.
I’m not quite sure what in the world this has to do with my agenda of that last couple of months regarding age gap….
Precisely because boys 19,20,21 aren’t dating is the reason we have this crisis. Girls at that age are – and boys are not. Seems like you are beginning to get it.January 14, 2010 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #682690
19 year old girls might not date 20-21 year old boys because they are afraid that those boys are too young and immature (which most are, compared to girls in that age group), have no prospects of a future parnassah as yet, and are not ready for the responsibilities of marriage and a family.January 14, 2010 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #682691westcoastMember
so if i decide to wait till about 21/22 to start dating because i want a guy that is almost economically stable and more mature and i want myself to almost be done with school, then my prospects of getting suggested to a ‘normal’ guy are lower? :/January 15, 2010 3:58 am at 3:58 am #682692
Why, westcoast? Do you think there are no normal guys who are 23-25?January 15, 2010 5:29 am at 5:29 am #682693westcoastMember
oh no..i know there are, this post makes it seem that the guys that age are only after the 19/20 year old girls. maybe i misread it…January 15, 2010 7:54 am at 7:54 am #682694
westcoast: statistically they are lower, however each individual has Hashgacha Pratis, so you have to do what is right for you.January 15, 2010 8:12 am at 8:12 am #682695
az: “I’m not quite sure what in the world this has to do with my agenda of that last couple of months regarding age gap….”
#1 100% married at 25 is no crisis.
#2 getting the married is not the only issue. If you pressure people to marry someone inappropriate just because they are the right age or boys to marry too young,you will have a much bigger problem on your hands.January 15, 2010 10:27 am at 10:27 am #682696PosterMember
oomis1105, My husband was 20 years old when I married him. He was very mature, had his head on his shoulders and is very bright. I dont think it is fair to classify boys ages 20-21 as “too young and immature”. All boys are different. This is something you can find out in information and maturity is also something you can tell on a boy when you are dating.January 15, 2010 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #682697
#1 IF 100% of girls were married at 25 there would be NO discussion. The problem is that at 29 years old (having dated 10 years) 10%+ of girls still single.
THAT’S a HUGE problem.
#2 There is absolutely no data whatsoever that the close in age shidduchim that have taken place over the last two years have any more shalom bayis issues than that which is unfortunately considered regular in our community. If anything they are likely to be better marriages (if only because of the numerous brachos from various gedolim re: the issue).
In fact the present situation where the boys hold all the cards is in itself very harmful for marriage. Evening out the playing field and dating on equal footing will itself go a very long way towards reducing shalom bayis issues down the road.January 15, 2010 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #682698
Poster, your husband is the exception, not the rule. And I congratulate you on finding such a gem. I know a LOT of boys in that age group, and some are, as you say, very mature. Most are not, and do not even know what direction they are headed in, because they have spent msot of their time in Yeshivah, and not yet had the chance to experience the real world. What they think they wanted at 20, changes drastically at 22-23, just a very few years later. Part of that is because some of them become more educated and realize that the Mommy-Daddy deep pockets are becoming emptier and they have to provide for a wife and children on their own. PArt of it is simply wanting to experience life, to do things they will not be free to do when they have the responsibilities of marriage and their own families. I think that goes across the board for girls too. But in truth, most girls, as we all know, mature faster thasn boys of the same age, and a girl and boy of 20 are USUALLY not on the same page. I say usually, because, as you pointed out, there are exceptions.January 16, 2010 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #682699
az: “The problem is that at 29 years old (having dated 10 years) 10%+ of girls still single”
My point is that this does not seem to be true.
“There is absolutely no data whatsoever that the close in age shidduchim have any more shalom bayis issues”
That’s called having your head in the sand. Everyone involved in Shalom Bayis issues knows that immaturity is one of the primary causes of divorce in our community. and it is foolish to think that if boys marry younger they will be MORE mature. I have to agree with oomis on this one.January 17, 2010 4:32 am at 4:32 am #682700
“I have to agree with oomis on this one. “
Whoa! Let’s not get carried away! 🙂January 17, 2010 11:15 am at 11:15 am #682701PhyllisMember
If the trend will be for boys to marry at 20-21 they will begin thinking about the future at a younger age (say 17-18), the Rabbeim will begin speaking about building a home at a younger age thus making them more mature, thereby making boys more ready for marriage at a younger age.
You can’t tell a boy to get married at 20 to fix the system. But, if he knows that he will start dating at 20 chances are he will “settle down” in thought and in spirit at 18, and then by 20 he will be Be’zras Hashem be ready.January 17, 2010 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #682702
AZ. Since boys ages 19-22, for the most part are not dating and girls 19-22 for the most part, are dating, there is a natural age gap. The full page ads with the signatures of 60 or so Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim urging “close in age shidduchim” is saying 1 of 2 things (it isn’t clear what)
1) Boys should start dating at a younger age or
2) Girls should start dating at an older age
If not, the age gap will continue. the “primary cause” of older singles is not the “age gap” as it is thrown around but the age gap that is a result of the current chinuch system. If it is not changed and all 23 year old boys who start dating will be dating girls 22+, the girls 19-22 will by and large have to find something to do. Will these Rabbonim allow them to go to college, get a job in corporate america? Will the mindset of yeshiva boys towards these girls change? If not, we will have even more single at an even younger age along with many more single boys.
This “marry close in age” is half an answer, at best, and half answers are worse than no answers.
As an aside, my Rosh Yeshiva is a signatory to the full page ad. When I asked him what he signed onto, he replied “the concept that close in age shidduchim is not a bad thing” and that “shadchanim should give priority to older girls, whenever possible”. He trusted, that is what would be “advertised”. He did not expect, and quite frankly does not agree with the premise that the “primary cause” of the “singles crisis” is the dating age. What can he do now? He advises his bachurim when to date and if asked, offers advise on a particular shidduch, he will NOT say, “not for you, your 23 and she is 19”.January 17, 2010 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #682703
Phyliss: “The maturity of a boy or girl has to do with how long they have been thinking of marriage”
This MAY be true to a degree, but maturity is also a direct product of age and experience. If you would start discussing marriage with an infant they would still not be prepared for matrimony at 3.January 18, 2010 5:03 am at 5:03 am #682704
Phyllis, unless I seriously misunderstood what you posted, I cannot agree with you. Girls begin thinking of their weddings and getting married as soon as they are old enough to take a white towel and pin it to their hair and put Mommy’s high heels on. Boys think about it as soon as they feel like it.Their thinking or not thinking about it, has nothing to do with maturity. Many immature boys AND girls think about marriage as soon as their hormones start kicking in. Unfortunately many of them get married way too early, for the wrong reasons. And if you don’t believe that, you are missing out on the true nature of kids today. Thinking about marriage does not mean one is ready for it.January 18, 2010 8:33 am at 8:33 am #682705PhyllisMember
oomis1105, when I write thinking about marriages, I hope you dont think I mean a little girl dressing up like a Kallah on Purim or wearing her mothers shoes. I mean thinking as in “introspection, deliberation about what they hope to gain and how they plan to grow in the future.” I mean having discussions in school with teachers which we started in 11th and 12th grade. By boys having the Rabbeimim bring it up in class, learning Mussar sefarim, which my husband’s class was encourged to by his Rosh yeshiva every night after night seder. These actions make a boy and girl think seriously about building a home. Why have boys strt this at 22? start at 17-18 then maybe they will be ready for marriage sooner.
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