August 19, 2011 3:28 am at 3:28 am #598780
Bishul Yisroel; Pas Yisroel; Cholov Yisroel; what other categories am I leaving off? (Chodosh/Yoshon?)
And what is the importance of them? Must one follow them? Is it preferable?August 19, 2011 4:26 am at 4:26 am #808335
There are 6 Issurim (by my count) that involve not eating/drinking certain foods. Most are to avoid marrying Goyim; some are for Kashrus.
Stam Yeinam is the most strict. We treat it as mostly Assur B’Hanah because there is an added worry that maybe the Goy was Menasech it for Avodah Zarah.
Pas and Bishul Akkum are to avoid intermarriage. There are several Kulos for each of these in cases where their is not an increased level of familiarity (e.g. the food is not fancy or the bread was made by a baker to sell).
For Chalav and Gevinas Akkum, we are worried about the non-Jew mixing something Treif in. By milk it is that there is actual Treif milk mixed in; by cheese it is the enzymes to cause the cheese to form.
There is a sixth Issur of using oil produced by a non-Jew which the late Tannaim were Mattir because they saw that the majority of the population could not handle it.
Chodosh is an entirely separate Issur. Pashut P’shat is that it is an Issur D’Oraisa, even in Chutz L’Aretz. There are many complicated (and some not-so-complicated) reasons given for the Heter. Even though Pashut P’shat would be that it is Assur Mi’d’oraisa anywhere, Chalilah on anyone to say that the vast majority of Ashkenazi Jews have been violating an Issur D’Oraisa for the past 1000 years.August 19, 2011 9:18 am at 9:18 am #808336
The first three are d’rabbonon and must be followed. As dinei d’rabbonon, they have evolved over time.You should follow your posek.
Chodosh/Yoshon has also evolved over time, but is really a d’oraiso and should be followed strictly.August 19, 2011 10:42 am at 10:42 am #808337apushatayidParticipant
Good questions all. Is why the mishna in avos says “asay licha rav”.August 19, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #808339
So is Pas Akum and Bishul Akum assur? Otherwise, what is the point of Pas Yisroel and Bishul Yisroel?August 21, 2011 8:22 am at 8:22 am #808342
Yes, Pas Akum and Bishul Askum are Assur. The issues are what exactly defines Pas Akkum and Bishul Akkum. There are several Machlokesim between the Mechaber and Rama (and later Poskim) about details of each. “Pas Yisroel” labels are a slight misnomer. They probably should say “Pas Yisroel lechumra”. Everyone agrees that Pas Akkum is Assur. The issue is exactly how it’s determined. Ask your Rabbi/Posek for specific Shailos. (I would give my opinion on any specific Shailos asked here, but I in no way mean for anything to be taken Lema’aseh. I wouldn’t say it unless I thought I was right but that doesn’t mean i have any actual authority.)August 21, 2011 9:10 am at 9:10 am #808343RABBAIMParticipant
someone should elaborate on the difference between pas paltir and pas akum. chalav stam and chlav akum.and maybe even in which time you live and how reliable the government is in its laws.August 21, 2011 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #808344
How then does OU and other hechsherim give a hechsher to bread baked by non-Jewish national bread companies? And have not Jews eaten bread from non-Jewish bakers immediately after Pesach for thousands of years?August 21, 2011 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #808345
As Rabbanim alluded, Pas Akum and Chalav Akum are assur miDerabannan, however, our bread is pas palter which is a different story altogether. Similarly, our milk according to Reb Moshe and the Chazon Ish is equivalent to Chalav Yisroel, even when not designated as such.
Also, our wine is different than the stam yeinam that is assur b’hana’ah, since goyim for many centuries are not committed to true Avoda Zara.August 21, 2011 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #808346yitayningwutParticipant
Bakeries are not Pas Akum, they are Pas Palter. Palter literally means baker. And many poskim regard bread of companies as even better than Pas Palter, since the reason for the gezeirah was to prevent a closeness to the family of the non-Jew that would lead to intermarriage, and with packaged goods this is not really plausible (And that is the reasoning in halacha why the baker’s bread is better than the private person’s bread).August 21, 2011 3:03 pm at 3:03 pm #808347YW Moderator-42Moderator
This is how I have understood this. Please correct me if I’m wrong.
Pas akum is bread baked by a private goy in his own house. This is assur according to everyone.
The bread that the OU gives hechsherim to is pas palter, bread baked commercially, which is muttar to eat. There is a chumra not to eat it, some people follow this chumra all the time, some follow it only on Shabbos and Yom Tov, but it is only a chumra, halachicly it is completely muttar.August 21, 2011 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #808348yitayningwutParticipant
Correct. And since this is a legitimate chumra, it is brought down in halacha even those who aren’t generally machmir should be machmir during Aseres Yemei Teshuva. However, based on the reasoning I mentioned above, some poskim hold that regarding any goods distrubuted by a company there is no reason to be machmir, and that the bread certified by the OU does not even constitute Pas Palter.August 21, 2011 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #808349
Tomche: The main Heter (which probably has issues for Sephardim because the Mechaber is against it, but I will admit to being unfamiliar with contemporary Sephardi Poskim and custom on the issue) is that the Rama holds that Pas Palter (baked by a baker for money) is Muttar. This is what many Ashkenazim and almost all Hechsherim without the “Pas Yisroel” label go by. The idea is that there is less of a feeling of closeness with a non-Jew who baked bread for profit rather than for you personally.
I would assume they have. There is a Gemara in Chullin (not positive on the Daf) that says that the bread of someone who eats Chometz on Pesach right after Pesach is not Chometz because they trade (bread according to Rashi, makes the most sense but has an issue with R’ Yehudah’s opinion elsewhere) with non-Jews right after Pesach. The Gemara says it’s Muttar for K’sheirim to eat, though I guess it wouldn’t be impossible to read the Gemara just from a D’Oraisa-Chomtetz standpoint. The word Muttar is a little weird though. I am not familiar if this Gemara is brought as a proof for the Pas Yisroel Sugyos or not.
One thing to add Moderator 42: The Halachah very clearly is that the Heter to eat Pas Paltir does not apply during the Aseres Y’mei Teshivah. During those days only things with a “Pas Yisroel” label should be eaten by everyone.August 21, 2011 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #808350Jersey JewParticipant
Pas Akum is like a personal bread which would be assur. Kosher certified bread non pas-yisroel bread would be pas palter.
Hello99, you are incorrect by saying that the “cholov stamm” in the USA is like cholov yisroel because is is not. There is no doubt one is better off consuming cholov yisroel milk products. There were specific reasons given by Reb Moshe ZTL as to why it would be muttar in places like the USA where is there is govt control over milk being cow’s milk however if you looked at the tshuva you will see that if one can use cholov yisroel, they should. (I personally am not makpid on c”y for reasons i hope not to have to go into here. )
I should also mention that I have a dear friend who works in kashrus and he recently told me that within 6-9 months there will be a new brand of c’y on the market which will be much cheaper with higher quality than the established brands.August 21, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #808351Abe CohenParticipant
Rav Moshe’s wrote that a yirei shamayim should be machmir on CY.August 21, 2011 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #808352
mark levine: “Hello99, you are incorrect by saying that the “cholov stamm” in the USA is like cholov yisroel because is is not”
I said that “according to Reb Moshe and the Chazon Ish” they are equivalent, and that is completely accurate.August 21, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #808353
the topic of CY according to Reb Moshe has been debated at great length in other threads. please search for them and lets not repeat ourselves.August 22, 2011 12:58 am at 12:58 am #808354yicMember
rabbi moshe finshtien said this all about his time and most frum pepole dont paskin like him when he is saying that a mchitsa is good till over the shoulder or even less cause most from his psokim is made like r’ shamshin rfouel hirsh to keep modern jews jewishAugust 22, 2011 3:17 am at 3:17 am #808355YW Moderator-42Moderator
There are those who are meikel on pas palter of companies according to the reason brought by yitayningwat even during aseres ymei tshuva. Though a yrei shamayim should be machmir. For what it’s worth, I think it is more important to have pas yisroel during aseres ymei tshuva then cholov yisrael.August 22, 2011 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #808356
Chodosh is an entirely separate Issur. Pashut P’shat is that it is an Issur D’Oraisa, even in Chutz L’Aretz. There are many complicated (and some not-so-complicated) reasons given for the Heter. Even though Pashut P’shat would be that it is Assur Mi’d’oraisa anywhere, Chalilah on anyone to say that the vast majority of Ashkenazi Jews have been violating an Issur D’Oraisa for the past 1000 years.
It is a Machlokes between all the Poskim (except perhaps the Rema) who say Assur, and the Bach who says Muttar. Klal Yisroel Paskined for hundreds of years like the Bach. There is a new movement to be Machmir like the other poskim, but the Halacha Pesuka does not change.August 22, 2011 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #808357
Sam2 is correct here. Anyone who learns the sugya sees that chodosh is an issur d’oraiso even in chutz la’aretz, only lumdishe pyrotechnics can dispute this. And yet we find that for whatever reason, it was not kept. Since it is inconceivable from a theological point of view that Am Yisrael transgressed an issur d’oraiso for so long, the Bach came up with a way to deal with it. We did not pasken like the Bach, we simply accepted the Bach’s explanation. Nowadays when yoshon is easily available, it is just as inconceivable that we not change our old ways. It is not a chumrah, the mishna is quite clear about it. I think it is obvious that had yoshon been readily available in the days of the Bach, no heter would have been offered.August 22, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #808358
Since it is inconceivable from a theological point of view that Am Yisrael transgressed an issur d’oraiso for so long, the Bach came up with a way to deal with it. We did not pasken like the Bach, we simply accepted the Bach’s explanation.
WADR, that is not the way Klal Yisroel works. If the Bach held it was Assur, he would have said so. In fact, I remember going through that specific Bach, and do not remember any apologies offered.
It may be that Paskening like the Bach was a B’Dieved, but that Bach himself actually held what he claimed.August 22, 2011 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #808359
I disagree Old Man. If Yoshon had always been readily available, then maybe people would never have eaten Chodosh in Chutz La’aretz. But since we can’t accept that all of K’lal Yisroel was being Over an Issur D’Oraisa, we have to go by our “Lomdishe pyrotechnics”. To start eating only Yoshon now is to say that those Jews were Over this Lav for a thousand years. That is just untenable. So whether we go by the Bach’s, the Rama’s, or one of the later Poskim’s reasons, we have to assume that one of them is correct.August 22, 2011 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #808360
old man – I heard in America, there is another Heter. Rov of the wheat produced here which is sent to market is Yoshon. What do you have to say about this?August 22, 2011 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #808361
Yoshon wasn’t available in the Bach or Rema’s time?August 22, 2011 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #808362
Mod 42 – “The bread that the OU gives hechsherim to is pas palter, bread baked commercially, which is muttar to eat. There is a chumra not to eat it, some people follow this chumra all the time, some follow it only on Shabbos and Yom Tov, but it is only a chumra, halachicly it is completely muttar.”
Wrong – since you mentioned the OU. The OU claims that all of their baked products are Pas Yisroel because it’s their policy to have the Maschiach light the oven. So there is never a reason not to eat their products even during the Aseres Yemai Teshuva.
(I personally doubt it’s every single time, but it’s probably Rov.)
This I heard from s/o who works for the Vaad Hakashrus of Balto. (I guess this only applies to Bishul because I can’t see it applying to baking.) The Rav Hamachshir (you know who he is) holds that if the Maschiach turns on the light in the room -this is enough not to be Bishul Acum because the light adds a tiny bit of heat.August 22, 2011 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #808363
@Health: I actually once had to say food was Assur because someone used that Heter. It was very sad because no one listened to me and a lot of people ate Bishul Akkum. The lights were fluorescent. And people need to be very careful because the Heter of doing a tiny bit of adding heat is not accepted by most Sephardim.August 22, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #808364anon1m0usParticipant
Sam2: If the bread was baked commercially it is not asser. Bishul Akum was created against home baked goods.
Health: here is the link to the StarK’s website that discusses Bishul Akum and the heter of the light bulb.August 22, 2011 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #808365
Not to worry, I don’t mind being disagreed with.
First of all, if the wheat is yoshon, then there is no need for a heter, it is muttar. There’s nothing to say about it. For those who remember, after the US and Russia reached a nuclear agreement in the 70s, the US obligated itself to buy huge amounts of Russian wheat. This in itself caused so much of an oversupply of wheat that by the time it came to market, the probability that it was already yoshon was very high indeed. Halachic problem solved.
Second, I suspect that yoshon was not available in the spring before Pesach in the Rama’s and Bach’s time. I will check this out with an expert in the history of agriculture. After Pesach this problem dissolves of course, until the next season.
Third, I do believe that “klal yisrael works like that”. Whatever halachic casuistic pyrotechnics that are necessary in one era can be rejected in another era. This does not reflect on the spiritual level or merits of any given person or group at any time. There are numerous examples of this if you go through shutim of previous eras. If yoshon is readily available nowadays, I believe that the Bach’s explanation can be rejected and I believe he would reject it also. This does not mean that anyone was over an issur d’oraiso ever. Al pi hatorah asher yorucha.We do the best we can under the circumstances. That’s what the Bach did and that’s the best we can do. HKBH has it figured out and there’s no need to worry about it.August 22, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #808366
Sam2 – This is the policy of that Vaad Hakashrus. I don’t know if they differentiate between incandescent or fluorescent (quite possibly). But if you have problems with this policy -you know whom to call. Or just don’t rely on them. At least the OU officially holds the Maschiach has to light the fire.August 22, 2011 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #808367
Sephardim and Ashkenazim have different customs regarding Chodosh.
The Bach didn’t premise his psak on the availability of Yoshon. And speculating whether it was or wasn’t available in his (or the Rema’s) is entirely pointless.
The Bach’s ruling stands. (Especially considering few or none of the contemporary Gedolei Poskim in Ashkenaz challenge it today.)August 22, 2011 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #808368
If yoshon is readily available nowadays, I believe that the Bach’s explanation can be rejected and I believe he would reject it also.
Obviously you have never read the Bach inside. See Yoreh Dayah Simin 293.August 22, 2011 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #808369
anon1m0us – That wasn’t what I was necessary talking about. I think he holds the same thing with Bishul and a room light bulb.August 22, 2011 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #808370
old man -“For those who remember, after the US and Russia reached a nuclear agreement in the 70s, the US obligated itself to buy huge amounts of Russian wheat. This in itself caused so much of an oversupply of wheat that by the time it came to market, the probability that it was already yoshon was very high indeed. Halachic problem solved.”
This is what I’m talking about right now. There is an oversupply in America all the time, whether we still buy the Russky wheat or not, so Al Pi Rov the wheat is Yoshon. So there is no reason to be Machmir on getting Vaday Yoshon!August 22, 2011 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #808371
Don’t be condescending, you don’t know me. I read the Bach from beginning to end. I stand by my opinion. If you have read books on the history of psak, you have seen where my my point of view stems from. You can disagree with my opinion, but if you make snide comments, don’t bother continuing this conversation.August 22, 2011 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #808372
Health, I can agree with that.August 22, 2011 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #808373
Having “read books on the history of psak” is absolutely meaningless. Show us teshuvos, not history lessons.August 22, 2011 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #808374
old man: That’s not how I read it, but I will apologize & respect your opinion.August 23, 2011 12:11 am at 12:11 am #808375MDGParticipant
Most (about 2/3) of wheat grown in the USA is Yashan, BUT about 80% of durum wheat – used for pasta – is summer wheat, planted in late April.
Barley and Oats are also summer crops.August 23, 2011 12:24 am at 12:24 am #808376ilovetorahParticipant
health, maybe i am misunderstanding you but i dont believe anyone in the star k holds that a light in THE ROOM is sufficient, only a light in the heating/oven chamber. i myself spoke to R’ Heineman and others in the star k regarding this.August 23, 2011 12:35 am at 12:35 am #808377ilovetorahParticipant
furthermore that which you write concerning the ou that a mashgiach turns on the fire every time- if you are referring to PAS i dont believe your correct, in the ou documents on hilchos bishul akum its very clear many times over that for pas palter the ou does not require any action from a yid. maybe you are referring to BISHUL akum- in that case what i think you meant to say is that the ou does not rely on the heter of a light bilb in the oven chamber.August 23, 2011 2:09 am at 2:09 am #808378ChachamParticipant
The Mishna Berura in siman 589 45 says (rough translation) any baal nefesh should not be somech on all these heteirim [ ie. the rama and the bach] and should be makpid on as much as he could. The Biur Halacha DH Af Bzman hazeh says many people are meikil because it is too hard to keep nogea beer etc. and therefore do not keep chodosh bchlal . But they should know just because theyy can not keep all of it it shoud not be batul lgamri. Because in our medina ( poland) the wheat is all yoshon Aand it is easy to keep. So one should try and keep it in the areas that are easy for him. ayin shum
The Gra in masseh rav holds it should be treated like any other deoraysa and therefore it is assur to give food that is chodosh to someone who will eat it.August 23, 2011 3:52 am at 3:52 am #808379
MDG – “Most (about 2/3) of wheat grown in the USA is Yashan, BUT about 80% of durum wheat – used for pasta – is summer wheat, planted in late April.
Barley and Oats are also summer crops.”
Does Barley & oats have to be Yoshon or is it just wheat?
So if most wheat is Yoshon besides pasta, why is almost everybody here in this town (Lkwd) and the Machmirim in other towns, always insisting on Vaday Yoshon on things besides pasta?August 23, 2011 3:56 am at 3:56 am #808380
ilovetorah -“health, maybe i am misunderstanding you but i dont believe anyone in the star k holds that a light in THE ROOM is sufficient, only a light in the heating/oven chamber. i myself spoke to R’ Heineman and others in the star k regarding this.”
Did you ask R’ Heineman specifically about what he holds with regards to the light bulb in the room as it pertains to Bishul?August 23, 2011 4:21 am at 4:21 am #808381Jersey JewParticipant
hello99, the problem is (and again, I am not “makpid” on CY!) according to Reb Moshe ZTL, reasons for his hetayrim not withstanding, he said one SHOULD purchase milk which was supervised in the emes cholov yisroel tradition.August 23, 2011 4:44 am at 4:44 am #808382
ilovetorah -“furthermore that which you write concerning the ou that a mashgiach turns on the fire every time- if you are referring to PAS i dont believe your correct, in the ou documents on hilchos bishul akum its very clear many times over that for pas palter the ou does not require any action from a yid.”
I was talking about their criteria of Pas Yisroel. I went to their web site for the following:
They have 3 criteria for Pas Yisroel -must have at least one:
1. Bread put in oven by a Yid.
2. Oven turned on by Yid.
3. Oven temp. raised by Yid, even if subsequently lowered.
They hold that the oven can be shut off and then turned on by a goy as long as the oven temp. didn’t go lower than (I think)
176 degrees. This is still Pas Yisroel.
Even though they do certify Pas Palter, they have a very extensive Pas Yisroel list, which they post on their site. (And not just Frum bakeries.)
They also use an unique method to turn on some ovens. The following is an article that explains this:
“To ensure that baked goods are pas Yisrael, an observant
Jew must ignite the oven in which the
product is being baked. The OU recommends
named after the inventor, Rabbi Yehuda
Shain of Lakewood, New Jersey. This technique
involves installing an electric panel
that will enable the oven to be turned on
by an RFR (who is not in the bakery) using
a remote control telephone hook-up. This
system meets the strictest halachic requirements
and has received the approbation of
leading rabbinic authorities.”August 23, 2011 7:52 am at 7:52 am #808383
Ok, Gavra, thanks for understanding my annoyance, we’re cool.
I will explain myself. You are absolutely correct that the Bach makes no apologies and unlike the beginning of his piece, towards the end he unequivocally states that his opinion is emes. Methinks he protests too much. We all know that beyond the shakla v’tarya there are metahalachic considerations among poskim. These include migdar milsa, hefsed merubah, limud zchus, tzorech harabim, tzorech gadol, hora’as sha’ah and the like. I feel that the Bach was confronted with an embarrasing situation, that of only a precious few honoring the issur of chodosh and he was determined lelamed zchus. I think he was too determined and showed it. My personal opinion is that he would have been happy had it been a halachah that all kept like chametz b’pesach and would have supported an issur goref. Can I prove my opinion? No, of course not. But that’s the way I see it.August 23, 2011 9:11 am at 9:11 am #808384
Hacham: No disrespect intended to teshuvos. A good book relating to the history of psak halachah can be illuminating. For instance, when discussing yibum and halitza it is esential to understand the culture of Moslem/Arabic countries in the Middle Ages;otherwise the teshuvos are in a vacuum that cannot be understood. So too with the Chasam Sofer; some of his teshuvos are bewildering without knowledge of the history of the Enlightenment and Reform. Teshuvos on mechiras chametz do not make sense unless one understands the economic system of the Jewish businessman two hundred years ago. This information is best delivered in various books that quote many teshuvos and explain them in the context of the times they were written. I can give you a list of good books if you are interested.August 23, 2011 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #808385
old man: You need some respect for the Poskim of Klal Yisroel, the Bach and those since. You aren’t anyone to challange the Bach. Nor do you have subsequent Ashkenazic poskim who dispute it. So you have no grounds, and your “opinions” are without meaning.August 23, 2011 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #808386
Hacham, I think it’s unfortunate that you feel that way. You need not pay any attention to what I write in the future.
- The topic ‘Bishul Yisroel, Pas Yisroel, Cholov Yisroel’ is closed to new replies.