B’ito, or Achishena?

Home Forums Bais Medrash B’ito, or Achishena?

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  • #1787791

    motchah11
    Participant

    Asbyou probably know, the Navi says about bias Moshiach “b’ito achishena,” “in its time I will hurry it up.”

    Say Chazal, if we are zoiche, it will be hurried up. If we are not zoiche, Moshiach will come at a preset date. If Moshiach comes hurried, we will be zoiche to nissim giluyim (overt miracles). If the geulah comes at the preset date, we will not be zoiche to nissim giluyim, and things will occur in a seeming natural manner.

    Why do many Chareidi Rabbonim assume that the geulah will come achishena, with nissim giluyim. I am told that the Vayoel Moshe takes that position, but not why. I can’t learn the entire sefer. Can someone please explain this to me? (I am Chareidi.)

    #1787820

    Hamakom
    Participant

    This is in light of their view that, with so many secular forces in Israel, there is no trajectory at this point for any natural progress. In fact, we are drifting further from the goal, but it is 11:59:58 on the “moshiach clock”. Therefore, because there is every indication that such a trend will continue, especially in light of the recent Israeli election, yet we know moshiach must come soon, the only way it can possibly happen at this point is by Divine Intervention.

    #1787823

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Don’t you want to be considered זוכה?

    I don’t understand

    #1787974

    munkatch
    Participant

    “כימי צאתם מארץ מצרים אראנו נפלאות”
    – מיכה פרק ז’ פסוק טו

    #1788012

    rational
    Participant

    All should stay away from topics that we are incapable of understanding. The proposed variations on moshiach, how, when, and under what conditions, are mind-boggling numerous, proving my point. Do mitzvos, live in israel, and be a good person. Let HKBH do the rest, He’s reliable.

    #1788034

    Grey matter
    Participant

    What indicates that it is 11:59:58 on the moshiach clock? When is 12:00

    #1788127

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Tosfas in Rosh Hashanah says that the Satan gets confused when we blow extra because he thinks that it is shofar of Meshiach. Why would he think so? The Ksav Sofer explains that there can be two times when Meshiach can come one is the fixed time b’ito and another before the fixed time, achisheno. We do teshuva from fear by haviing a king acting like Haman when Meshiach comes in its designated time but if we do teshuva from love, we can accelerate his coming before the designated time, achisheno. Rashi explans there, Rosh Hashanah 15, that when we blow extra, we show our love for mitzvos to Hashem thereby bringing Meshiach, so the Satan gets confused thinking that this is the shofar of Meshiach.

    #1788215

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    When we are worthy, we will have geulas achishena, without our intervention, otherwise it comes slowly.

    #1788211

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Moderator: The edit does not work. I corrected tume to time above and it still shows tume but when I want to edit it, it shows time. The edit is not being applied and the old work place is not refreshed.

    #1788222

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Moderator: I just noticed that the topic and the invidual edits are out of sync. The individual is correctly edited but not the topic.

    #1788571

    motchah11
    Participant

    I posted four responses here, yet none of them showed up.

    #1788548

    motchah11
    Participant

    coffee addict: Of course I want to be considered zoiche! But it must be all of Klal Yisrael who are zoiche in order for it to be achishena, and wanting doesn’t make it happen.

    #1788549

    motchah11
    Participant

    Hamakom: That being the case, the only possible way is for it to be b’ito. And that is a process that will happen slowly.

    #1788551

    motchah11
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer: I know. But why is the assumption that it will happen “achishena?”

    #1788550

    motchah11
    Participant

    munkatch: That is only one of the two ways that the posuk says it can happen. Again, Chazal say clearly that it can happen with nissim giluyim, if it happens “achishenah.” But if it happens “b’ito,” that posuk in Michah will not happen.

    #1788590

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The question is as by the meraglim, will the yeshuah come bidei odom or bidei shomayim without any human intervention? If we are worthy, gualas achishena, the yeshuah would be strictly min hashomayim otherwise we have to start building the bais hamikdash and the one of fire will come on top of it as is we say in nachem sorrunding it. What? The one we build.

    #1789776

    motchah11
    Participant

    I can guarantee that we will not be zoicheh to nissim giluyim or achishenah. I look around, and the only way I see that the entire Klal Yisrael will all be zoicheh is if it chas v’sholom happens like in Mitzrayim, if most Yiddin are niftar min ha’olam, chas v’sholom. Otherwise, I don’t see it happening. I think Hashem will be mirachem on Klal Yisrael, and bring the geulah slowly, being mikarev everyone to the Emes.

    #1789801

    Avi K
    Participant

    Some people want to tell Hashem how to bring about the Geula.

    #1789842

    motchah11
    Participant

    Oh please, I’m just predicting.

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