October 12, 2021 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #2015267
alot of people say that movies and games ext ext are bittul torah. what about coffee room??October 12, 2021 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2015298
Brochos (5,1) If one is afflcted with pain he should examine his actions and if not found a reason, than the fault is bittul torah. Isn’t that a good enough reason? They answer that if he could not find a reason, he did not learn enough and there must have been bittul torah.October 12, 2021 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2015299
The coffee room provides also Torah.October 12, 2021 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #2015308Yabia OmerParticipant
Coffee room is Bittul Torah par excellence. אין לך ביטול תורה גדול מזהOctober 12, 2021 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #2015304anonymous JewParticipant
Oh pleaseOctober 12, 2021 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #2015325
Taken to its illogical extreme, any time spent beyond that necessary to engage in essential life-supporting functions (presumably including earning a parnassah) is bitul torah. Just my own hypothesis, but I would suspect that most posters would not automatically be shteiging in the beis medrash were it not for their addiction to the CR.October 12, 2021 11:53 pm at 11:53 pm #2015328October 13, 2021 12:06 am at 12:06 am #2015353
@reb eliezer you are en exeptional person who brings torah into the coffee room, the problem is you are not the usual case. most people dont use the cr for divrei torah like you. my question is mainly what makes somthing bittul torah if most things we do is bittul torah. besides how big of a deal is bittul torah? ( a genuine question)October 13, 2021 1:14 am at 1:14 am #2015364
I think this is my 3rd time quoting the ohr somayach, but it’s a very, very useful geder of bitul torah. He says it grows with you, that it depends on where you’re holding in your capabilities, and that Hashem does not give us mitzvos that we are sometimes unable to do…the minimum is krias shema in the morning and night, but the ceiling never ends.
I agree that mechanchim shouldn’t dismiss anything people do besides learning as bitul torah. There are also usually much more compelling problems in the aforementioned list of activities that are not subject to the relativity of bitul torah.
It is noteworthy though that the ohr somayach is a bit of a chidush and that many rishonim seem to take for granted that one is obligated every second to learn barring necessities such as parnosa, eating, sleeping, etc
That being said, bitul torah is no joke; the zohar says that there are 7 circles of gehinnom, each one is comprised of all the others, and the 7th, comprising 49, is for those who could have learned but didn’t. “Efshar lo lilmod veayno lomeid” it’s also one of the 3 people that Hashem “cries” over.October 13, 2021 1:14 am at 1:14 am #2015365
Also, this mistake of mechanchim has led people to think that games are in the same category as movies, since they’re both bitul torah….for causing this kind of conflation, they bear a part of the responsibility of those who mistakenly believe that “well I’m not learning so i might as well go and watch movies”October 13, 2021 1:15 am at 1:15 am #2015366
We are not on the level to learn constantly, so we need some relaxation. The mods b’H make sure that no aveirus are made in the CR, so instead of watching movies or TV you use the CR. We discuss Torah as well that can be enjoyed. Politics and YWN can upset CR participants, so by expressing their opinions clears their head for Torah learning.October 13, 2021 1:16 am at 1:16 am #2015369
Also, rav aharon kotler in mishnas rebbe aharon discusses two types of bitul torah; one is “bekamus”, in quantity, and the other is “be’aychus”, in quality. Meaning, if one is able to learn for 3 hours, but lears for 2.5, that is bitul torah bekamus. If one can learn gemara rashi and tosfos, but is lazy and just learns gemara rashi, that is bitul torah be’aychus (unless you’re learning rashi b’iyun, which is entirely doable and should be done at any opportunity).
Being on the CR and writing my diatribes is a question of bitul torah be’aychus, as i write almost exclusively on halacha and hashkofa topics…it could be bitul torah, or not; I don’t know, but my intention is to try and express authentic hashkofa in a clear way as i have learned it and possibly influence others to not fall lrey to the onslaught of misinformation online and in communities who are unfortunately miseducated.October 13, 2021 1:24 am at 1:24 am #2015379
Gadol > any time spent beyond that necessary to engage in essential life-supporting functions
I think, this is a definition of Toraso Umanoso.
I also think some people here define “learning” time narrowly. IMHO, any discussion that involves clarification or application of Torah principles qualifies. Of course, if the discussion is done badly, without integrity, trying to defend your position rather than clarify the truth, it is bad Torah learning. In that sense, CR is riskier than memorizing a Mishna.October 13, 2021 9:24 am at 9:24 am #2015307
RebE> should examine his actions and if not found a reason, than the fault is bittul torah.
Find me someone who paid all his workers on time first (as with R Huna there) and then we can ask him about bitul Torah.
I do like Avira’s definition of mental capacity for learning (limited, but hopefully increasing). So, after you are exhausted your learning capacity for the day, you can come to CR. I think many of us are already following this advice!
Seriously, CR references provide sufficient material for learning. And major part of learning is being able to defend your views against a worthy opponent. R Yohanan would have stayed sane and alive after Resh Lakish petirah if he could have logged in here.October 13, 2021 9:28 am at 9:28 am #2015442
avira as described in the other thread there are other issues with moviesOctober 13, 2021 9:30 am at 9:30 am #2015473commonsaychelParticipant
This is own of the few times I agree with GH, the vast majority of people here would not spend the time that they are on the YWN learning with hasmada, and it gives an outlet to all the trolls to act stupid and all the frustrated lamdans a forum to show of the gadlusOctober 13, 2021 10:42 am at 10:42 am #2015527
The GRA wrote a sefer on Geometry called Ayil Meshulash. Sometimes some secular education helps to understand a mishna.
הזהב קונה את הכסף. The Chachomim said that miderabonon the commodity acquires the currency (meshicha koneh). Gold is the commodity and not the currency. Why? There is a law in economics called Gresham’s Law which says, the bad coins drive out the good coins from circulation. Gold is the good coin which is not spent but hoarded. Silver with less value is spent, so silver is currency and gold is the commodity.October 13, 2021 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #2015534
From a purely personal perspective, I frequently gain considerably more insight into daas torah here in the CR from some incredibly knowledgeable posters on divrei torah than in many more formal shiiurim and learning venues. Having acknowledged their gadlus in daas torah, I feel an obligation to occasionally enlighten and/or inform their views on contemporary political matters or at least offer a differing perspective than the usual echo chamber on some issues.October 13, 2021 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #2015538
We have been through multiple threads where it has been established that many gadolei yisroel in their generations also had acquired significant secular credentials. Gadlus in daas torah and secular scholarship are not mutually exclusive and in many cases, as you note, quite complimentary.October 13, 2021 12:46 pm at 12:46 pm #2015549
Avira, capitalizing a Rav’s name is a show of respect. Rav Aaron Kotler ztz’l deserves that respect which I learned in secular (compared to Torah) studies of proper English in the Yeshiva.October 13, 2021 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #2015573
Reb e, you got me on Hashem; i agreed to you, but I don’t think it needs to ge capitalized if I don’t capitalize other nouns; big letters for Godliness are special for kovod, but i don’t think the title “rav” needs it the same wayOctober 13, 2021 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #2015613
Avira, you are in great company of Harvard Graduate Poet, e.e. cummings known for being a non-conformist who wrote everything with small letters but why are you greater than Rav Kotler ztz’l with your screen name by using three capital letters?October 14, 2021 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2015828
RebE, would you be happier if Avira used only CAPITAL LETTERS? Or the true sign of respect is big letters for some but small for others? And whataboutthatTorahdoesnotusuallyhavebiglettersforanyoneandnopunctuationmarksalso
At the end, it is a convention. Avria can make a disclaimer that all Rabbis should be considered properly capitalized (if he thinks so). R Gershom Kamenetsky in a preface to his non-book says tht he is using R, and it is up to you whether it should mean reb, Rav, Rebe, Rabeinu, etcOctober 14, 2021 11:46 am at 11:46 am #2015965
AAQ, we cannot show respect with what we don’t have. In English this is the way of respect. If everything is shown in capital letters or small letters, no respect is shown.
When I wrote a teshuva for multiple people separately, I used the RMA’s title designation:
שו”ת הרמ”א סימן א
לקדם רבותינו שבבריסק, כל אחד יתברך ויתרומם לפי מעלת מדרגתו, שלום
I am European where respect was shown and not like in America were everyone is called by there first name or by ‘you’. We as children in Hungary greeted the elderly with kezit csokolom, I kiss your hand.
Calling myself Reb Eliezer is a lesson for all and having great rebbies as the Mattisdorfer Rav ztz’l, father and son, I consider myself a talmid (mei) chacham. Standing up for the elderly (in a bus) is something from the past or opening a door for someone. When there is no respect for the elderly, it is time for Meshiach.October 14, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #2015997commonsaychelParticipant
@ Reb E, Calling myself Reb Eliezer is a lesson for all and having great rebbies as the Mattisdorfer Rav ztz’l, father and son, I consider myself a talmid (mei) chacham.
And that is why you were nominated to be the Chief Rabbi of the Coffee Room and no one opposed youOctober 14, 2021 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #2016207
Note that English forces respect to your opponent by having “you” plural, even if you are not capitalizing the opponent’s name. This does not extend to other people you mention, though.
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