May 23, 2012 3:14 am at 3:14 am #603550
Regarding davening Is a yarmulke a good enough substitute for a hat. I know about the JFK and the hat stories already. It seems that just a blazer is the norm for kavod tefilla, and a hat being special for shabbos. A yarmulke serves as a head covering. Once upon a time in Europe, not everyone wore a yarmulke all day, but men would cover their heads for davening.May 23, 2012 3:30 am at 3:30 am #877080
Lakewhut: This depends on Minhag Hamakom. In many places (including almost everywhere out of town) a Kippah is enough. In some places, where one would not be caught outside without a hat ever, it is not enough.May 23, 2012 3:43 am at 3:43 am #877081
exampleMay 23, 2012 4:15 am at 4:15 am #877082
Lakewhut: B’nei B’rak and most of Me’ah Sh’arim, as well as certain isolated communities throughout New York and Eretz Yisroel.May 23, 2012 10:03 am at 10:03 am #877083gabieMember
The mishna brura paskens one must always wear a hat for davening and bentching.May 23, 2012 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #877084
Do you have source for that? Please show a citation.May 23, 2012 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #877085
The Mishnah B’rurah does not say it for Bentsching (as far as I know). The citation that Gabei is misrepresenting is 91:12.May 23, 2012 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #877086
Gabie, read my question carefully and answer it again intelligently. MDG the mishna brurah does say one must wear a ‘hat’ it doesn’t specifically say what kind of hat. To my knowledge not everyone in Europe wore a yarmulke all the time, except davening. mishna brurah se’ef katan 12.May 23, 2012 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #877087hershiMember
The M”B says a hat is needed in addition to a yarmulka.May 23, 2012 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #877088
“The Mishnah B’rurah does not say it for Bentsching (as far as I know). The citation that Gabei is misrepresenting is 91:12. “
I am familiar. I just wanted gabie to find out what (s)he’s misrepresenting.
“The M”B says a hat is needed in addition to a yarmulka.”
You forgot the opening word of that comment in the M”B, “bizmaneinu” – in our time. In his time, he points out, it was the way of respect to wear a hat. Even before JFK hat usage was in decline. JFK just put in the final nail in that coffin. Nowadays, no one (outside of a few of us holdouts) wears a hat. So I don’t think that anyone can claim that it is mandatory today. IMHO, a jacket (mentioned in the Sh”A) and tie would be more a derech of cavode today.May 23, 2012 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #877089bp27Participant
lakewhut – not sure what Mishan Berurah you are reading. It is pretty clear that he means a hat besides a yarmulka.
Your assumption that not everyone wore a yarmulke in Europe is completely incorrect.May 23, 2012 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #877090
Hershi: You’re ignoring the first word of that S’if Kattan.May 24, 2012 12:17 am at 12:17 am #877091
The Shulchan Aruch [91-6] writes that it is the way of chachomim and their students to daven only when they are wearing a jacket. The Kaf Hachayim [91-26] writes that since all people would wear a jacket when meeting with a king, one should do so during tefillah.
So how is it that sometimes certain people don’t wear a jacket by davening (especially Shachris, with no jacket under the talis — but it occurs too frequently even by other tefilos).May 24, 2012 12:57 am at 12:57 am #877092
Cheftze: You do realize that the jacket the Shulchan Aruch is talking about it very different from the suit jacket of today, right? Applications can be made from one to the other, but they are clearly not identical.May 24, 2012 1:12 am at 1:12 am #877093
Really, how are they “different”?May 24, 2012 1:17 am at 1:17 am #877094
Cheftze: Are you joking? Do you think they wore suit jackets in 16th-century Turkey and Israel?May 24, 2012 1:30 am at 1:30 am #877095147Participant
Look at a picture of gentlemen in morning coats & tails & top hats at the turn of last century.May 24, 2012 1:50 am at 1:50 am #877096
Sam, you’re suggesting the S”A be disregarded here?May 24, 2012 2:28 am at 2:28 am #877097
Cheftze: I’m not suggesting anything. I’m suggesting that we have to know what the SH”A means before we try to apply it.May 24, 2012 2:31 am at 2:31 am #877098OneOfManyParticipant
Look, there are three here too…May 24, 2012 2:37 am at 2:37 am #877099
How do you apply this S”A in your life?May 24, 2012 3:12 am at 3:12 am #877100
Cheftze: There are two concepts in play here. One is an issue of Hikon Likras Elokecha Yisroel. You always have to put on something special for Davening to show Kavod to HKBH. The second is that when one is in front of the King, one must dress appropriately. Therefore, one must be dressed in a manner which would be considered acceptable in front of a human leader. I always wear clothes for Davening that are just as nice or nicer as our class was told to wear when we visited the White House (we were supposed to meet the president but he was busy). That seems to be a fair application. I also make sure to put on something special just for Davening.May 24, 2012 3:52 am at 3:52 am #877101
Halevei everyone did as you. The ones who don’t is whom I addressed earlier.May 24, 2012 11:41 am at 11:41 am #877102
Just like policemen wear a uniform lehavdil so too us, we are the ambassadors of torah and we should wear a uniform including a hat.May 24, 2012 1:30 pm at 1:30 pm #877103simcha613Participant
R’Klonimus- I’m assuming Rashi didn’t wear a black hat as it wasn’t normal for his time. Wearing a black hat was normal 50 years ago. Why did that become the uniform?May 24, 2012 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #877104NaysbergMember
A head-covering was ALWAYS part of Jewish uniform for a ben Torah. Throughout our history.May 24, 2012 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #877105
Naysberg: See the Gemara in Kiddushin (29a maybe?) and a Maharshal (T’shuvos 72 maybe, I don’t quite remember) that seem to disagree with you.May 24, 2012 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #877106
The Shulchan Aruch says that it it assur to go with one’s head uncovered, but in the B”Y he says that’s a midat chassidut.May 24, 2012 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #877107
“The mishna brura paskens one must always wear a hat for davening and bentching. “
BTW, has anyone seen a Rav or R”Y wear a black hat during Shacharis?
They almost always have their talis over their head, not a hat. What happened to that halacha then?May 24, 2012 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #877108
wtvr a hat is a hiddur anyway, not a chiyuvMay 24, 2012 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #877109
MDG: The Shulchan Aruch’s Lashon of Lo Yeilech… doesn’t imply a complete Issur. For an actual Issur he uses the word “Assur”. Lo… generally implies a very strong Middas Chassidus, but not an actual Issur. (Just like “Tzarich” implies Lechatchilah and not B’dieved. I feel like this is in the Yad Malachi or one of those K’lalim Sefarim.)May 24, 2012 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #877110
Sam2, thank you for teaching me that.May 24, 2012 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #877111ZeesKiteParticipant
Come to think of it, does anyone know what color a black hat is?May 25, 2012 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #877112HaLeiViParticipant
Simcha, it doesn’t really matter how it became this way. The fact is that it is this way today. Changes happen gradually and there is little value inherent in the specific clothing, but the point is that we have our own clothing, which was always considered a good thing.
I can’t promise you that we always dressed so differently. In fact, it seems that at times it was pretty easy to confuse a Jew for a non-Jew. Very often the differences were subtle. But there was always a point to dress Jewish. Today, there is no universal dress code for all Orthodox Jews, but to those that have it, it’s real.May 29, 2012 7:33 am at 7:33 am #877113far eastMember
halevi- there is a dress code for all orthodox jews today. yarmulaka and tzitzisMay 29, 2012 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #877114
“Just like policemen wear a uniform lehavdil so too us, we are the ambassadors of torah and we should wear a uniform including a hat. “
You can’t say that you are an ambassador of Torah while making up customs that are not in the Torah and passing them off as if they are.
If you want to tell me that this a social norm, then fine with me. But don’t judge others based on it. And don’t push them to have to conform to your social norms if they don’t want to. If, l’havdil, every kids was wearing a NY Jets shirt and yours didn’t, would you feel right about him being treated as less. It seems to me that many who wear a hat look at others who don’t as being less frum.May 29, 2012 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #877115
“Come to think of it, does anyone know what color a black hat is? “
Good question ZeesKite. One of my hats is dark navy blue, but everyone thinks it’s black. If you put it up to a real black hat, you can tell.May 29, 2012 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #877116gavra_at_workParticipant
All the same.
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