Black hat

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  • #603550

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Regarding davening Is a yarmulke a good enough substitute for a hat. I know about the JFK and the hat stories already. It seems that just a blazer is the norm for kavod tefilla, and a hat being special for shabbos. A yarmulke serves as a head covering. Once upon a time in Europe, not everyone wore a yarmulke all day, but men would cover their heads for davening.

    #877080

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lakewhut: This depends on Minhag Hamakom. In many places (including almost everywhere out of town) a Kippah is enough. In some places, where one would not be caught outside without a hat ever, it is not enough.

    #877081

    lakewhut
    Participant

    example

    #877082

    Sam2
    Participant

    Lakewhut: B’nei B’rak and most of Me’ah Sh’arim, as well as certain isolated communities throughout New York and Eretz Yisroel.

    #877083

    gabie
    Member

    The mishna brura paskens one must always wear a hat for davening and bentching.

    #877084

    MDG
    Participant

    gabie,

    Do you have source for that? Please show a citation.

    #877085

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Mishnah B’rurah does not say it for Bentsching (as far as I know). The citation that Gabei is misrepresenting is 91:12.

    #877086

    lakewhut
    Participant

    Gabie, read my question carefully and answer it again intelligently. MDG the mishna brurah does say one must wear a ‘hat’ it doesn’t specifically say what kind of hat. To my knowledge not everyone in Europe wore a yarmulke all the time, except davening. mishna brurah se’ef katan 12.

    #877087

    hershi
    Member

    The M”B says a hat is needed in addition to a yarmulka.

    #877088

    MDG
    Participant

    “The Mishnah B’rurah does not say it for Bentsching (as far as I know). The citation that Gabei is misrepresenting is 91:12. “

    I am familiar. I just wanted gabie to find out what (s)he’s misrepresenting.

    “The M”B says a hat is needed in addition to a yarmulka.”

    You forgot the opening word of that comment in the M”B, “bizmaneinu” – in our time. In his time, he points out, it was the way of respect to wear a hat. Even before JFK hat usage was in decline. JFK just put in the final nail in that coffin. Nowadays, no one (outside of a few of us holdouts) wears a hat. So I don’t think that anyone can claim that it is mandatory today. IMHO, a jacket (mentioned in the Sh”A) and tie would be more a derech of cavode today.

    #877089

    bp27
    Participant

    lakewhut – not sure what Mishan Berurah you are reading. It is pretty clear that he means a hat besides a yarmulka.

    Your assumption that not everyone wore a yarmulke in Europe is completely incorrect.

    #877090

    Sam2
    Participant

    Hershi: You’re ignoring the first word of that S’if Kattan.

    #877091

    cheftze
    Member

    The Shulchan Aruch [91-6] writes that it is the way of chachomim and their students to daven only when they are wearing a jacket. The Kaf Hachayim [91-26] writes that since all people would wear a jacket when meeting with a king, one should do so during tefillah.

    So how is it that sometimes certain people don’t wear a jacket by davening (especially Shachris, with no jacket under the talis — but it occurs too frequently even by other tefilos).

    #877092

    Sam2
    Participant

    Cheftze: You do realize that the jacket the Shulchan Aruch is talking about it very different from the suit jacket of today, right? Applications can be made from one to the other, but they are clearly not identical.

    #877093

    cheftze
    Member

    Really, how are they “different”?

    #877094

    Sam2
    Participant

    Cheftze: Are you joking? Do you think they wore suit jackets in 16th-century Turkey and Israel?

    #877095

    147
    Participant

    Look at a picture of gentlemen in morning coats & tails & top hats at the turn of last century.

    #877096

    cheftze
    Member

    Sam, you’re suggesting the S”A be disregarded here?

    #877097

    Sam2
    Participant

    Cheftze: I’m not suggesting anything. I’m suggesting that we have to know what the SH”A means before we try to apply it.

    #877098

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Look, there are three here too…

    #877099

    cheftze
    Member

    How do you apply this S”A in your life?

    #877100

    Sam2
    Participant

    Cheftze: There are two concepts in play here. One is an issue of Hikon Likras Elokecha Yisroel. You always have to put on something special for Davening to show Kavod to HKBH. The second is that when one is in front of the King, one must dress appropriately. Therefore, one must be dressed in a manner which would be considered acceptable in front of a human leader. I always wear clothes for Davening that are just as nice or nicer as our class was told to wear when we visited the White House (we were supposed to meet the president but he was busy). That seems to be a fair application. I also make sure to put on something special just for Davening.

    #877101

    cheftze
    Member

    Halevei everyone did as you. The ones who don’t is whom I addressed earlier.

    #877102

    Just like policemen wear a uniform lehavdil so too us, we are the ambassadors of torah and we should wear a uniform including a hat.

    #877103

    simcha613
    Participant

    R’Klonimus- I’m assuming Rashi didn’t wear a black hat as it wasn’t normal for his time. Wearing a black hat was normal 50 years ago. Why did that become the uniform?

    #877104

    Naysberg
    Member

    A head-covering was ALWAYS part of Jewish uniform for a ben Torah. Throughout our history.

    #877105

    Sam2
    Participant

    Naysberg: See the Gemara in Kiddushin (29a maybe?) and a Maharshal (T’shuvos 72 maybe, I don’t quite remember) that seem to disagree with you.

    #877106

    MDG
    Participant

    The Shulchan Aruch says that it it assur to go with one’s head uncovered, but in the B”Y he says that’s a midat chassidut.

    #877107

    MDG
    Participant

    “The mishna brura paskens one must always wear a hat for davening and bentching. “

    BTW, has anyone seen a Rav or R”Y wear a black hat during Shacharis?

    They almost always have their talis over their head, not a hat. What happened to that halacha then?

    #877108

    lakewhut
    Participant

    wtvr a hat is a hiddur anyway, not a chiyuv

    #877109

    Sam2
    Participant

    MDG: The Shulchan Aruch’s Lashon of Lo Yeilech… doesn’t imply a complete Issur. For an actual Issur he uses the word “Assur”. Lo… generally implies a very strong Middas Chassidus, but not an actual Issur. (Just like “Tzarich” implies Lechatchilah and not B’dieved. I feel like this is in the Yad Malachi or one of those K’lalim Sefarim.)

    #877110

    MDG
    Participant

    Sam2, thank you for teaching me that.

    #877111

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Come to think of it, does anyone know what color a black hat is?

    #877112

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Simcha, it doesn’t really matter how it became this way. The fact is that it is this way today. Changes happen gradually and there is little value inherent in the specific clothing, but the point is that we have our own clothing, which was always considered a good thing.

    I can’t promise you that we always dressed so differently. In fact, it seems that at times it was pretty easy to confuse a Jew for a non-Jew. Very often the differences were subtle. But there was always a point to dress Jewish. Today, there is no universal dress code for all Orthodox Jews, but to those that have it, it’s real.

    #877113

    far east
    Member

    halevi- there is a dress code for all orthodox jews today. yarmulaka and tzitzis

    #877114

    MDG
    Participant

    “Just like policemen wear a uniform lehavdil so too us, we are the ambassadors of torah and we should wear a uniform including a hat. “

    You can’t say that you are an ambassador of Torah while making up customs that are not in the Torah and passing them off as if they are.

    If you want to tell me that this a social norm, then fine with me. But don’t judge others based on it. And don’t push them to have to conform to your social norms if they don’t want to. If, l’havdil, every kids was wearing a NY Jets shirt and yours didn’t, would you feel right about him being treated as less. It seems to me that many who wear a hat look at others who don’t as being less frum.

    #877115

    MDG
    Participant

    “Come to think of it, does anyone know what color a black hat is? “

    Good question ZeesKite. One of my hats is dark navy blue, but everyone thinks it’s black. If you put it up to a real black hat, you can tell.

    #877116

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Straw hats.

    Baseball caps.

    Grey hats.

    Pageboy caps.

    Green hats.

    Ski masks.

    Black hats.

    All the same.

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