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If one does not wear a black hat is he considered not frum? do people look down on him? why wont people go out with guys who don’t wear hats? can’t someone be religious without it? why does this define a person?
Ooh ooh picke me here we go in order
No
Yes
Lots of reasons mostly sociological
Yes
Hats arent inborn. The person chooses to wear or not wear a hat.
Lol, ubiquitin.
Mostly agree, except possibly with “mostly” sociological.
Hat = Religious, Religious = Hat.
In memory of Sir Terry.
A black hat is a cultural thing. Some communities have people who wear them and others don’t.
It depends what you wear instead of a “black hat”. If you wear nothing on your head, for a male, that suggests you are not part of the frum community or at least don’t want to be seen as being frum (of course some men have been known to wear wigs to pass as goyim).
However one’s hat sends messages to people about who you want to be seen as. If this subject interests you, and you have no interest in employability, study sociology in college.
Clearly, if you ask a frum person who does where a hat, you may get a different answer than if you ask a frum person who doesn’t where a hat. Depending, in part, on how important the hat wearer considers his hat-wearing is.
In short, you might have to decide whether it’s important to you that your daughter marry a hat wearer or not.
Someone recently brought his son to R’ Ahron Leib. He held two yarmulkes in his hand, one black velvet, the other seruga. He asked R Ahron Leib, “Is there any difference between these two?”
R AL responded, “No difference.”
The father then said, “Well if they’re the same, then is it fair that my son just got thrown out of his yeshiva because he wore the seruga?”
R’ Ahron Leib responded, “If they’re the same, why can’t he wear the black one?”
VDV”K.
Midwesterner, great story.
Midwesterner – you know why that story makes no sense? because the person who threw out the son was the one who said they are different and if they aren’t, he had no basis for throwing out the son. The question in return is irrelevent to that point. The father is saying to a charedi rav, do YOU see these two as the same? If the psak is that they are the same, then they cannot throw out my son. Period. Adding that end point instead of acknowledging the responsibility inherent in the beginning is a red herring.
And MORE importantly, I am excited about Mrs. Midwesterner’s summer plans! I have material that fits the request and am hoping to send it your way 😉
Rav Shteinman shlit”a is one of the gedolim today. I hope you’re were not trying to attack him personally.
Mrs. Syag: What RALS was saying is that there is nothing inherently different between the two. But there is something hugely symbolic. The father was trying to score a point by pointing out the inherent similarity and ignoring the symbolic difference. RALS, is a very soft and cute way, called him out on the hypocrisy.
On the second matter, we are also excited and hopeful about the new plans. However, I am not sure what you mean exactly. I was not aware that you had “Material” that she was planning on “servicing.” Maybe things grow when you’re not looking. I guess I just know of your larger merchandise, not the smaller variety.
Someone recently brought his son to R’ Ahron Leib. He held two yarmulkes in his hand, one black velvet, the other seruga. He asked R Ahron Leib, “Is there any difference between these two?”
R AL responded, “No difference.”
The father then said, “Well if they’re the same, then is it fair that my son just got thrown out of his yeshiva because he wore the seruga?”
R’ Ahron Leib responded, “If they’re the same, why can’t he wear the black one?”
Because they may be the same in some ways but not in others.
A red tie and a blue tie are the same ties in a functional sense, but one person may prefer red and the other blue. To ask the person who prefers blue why he won’t wear red if they have the same functionality is to dismiss the concept of personal preference for styles.
Likewise, the two yarmulkes may be the same from a halachic standpoint, but if the kid prefers one over the other and you want him to wear the other, you have to present him a valid reason to do so. Asking “Well, if they’re the same, why can’t he wear the black one?” isn’t a valid reason. It’s a dismissal.
The Wolf
my comment was not to Rav Shteinman shlit”a at all, it was to the ones who edit, repeat, edit and interpret them as they travel the globe (which I know well happens from friends who met ewith him)
bookends 🙂
Midwesterner, I agree with your interpretation of the story. I don’t know if the story is true, or if it’s the way R’ Aharon Leib would respond, but I think the point is true.
Wolf, we’re not dealing with aesthetic preference here.
I seldom wear a black hat. My great grandfather made hats, my father and grandfather were in the men’s clothing business. IO am an attorney who practices in the general public.
That said, I wear hats, but they match the suit I’m wearing, generally charcoal gray or midnight blue. Years ago, a wise old attorney (not Jewish) here in Connecticut told me. “The judge wears a black robe, you are not the judge and should wear a different color out of respect.”
So I wear Black for Shabbos and Yuntif when my life is revolved around Yidden.
chulentmoma613
Im not sure I follow, but I think I understand
“Does a person always choose a hat? Is it a choice if society forces it upon him?”
In this case yes to both, the person “chooses” to comply so that his kids get in the “right” schools right shiduchim etc. (We arent talking about “everything in life” just hats)
At any rate your question was about not wearing a black hat. I have never met anyone who wanted to wear one but felt pressured not to based on the above reasons (incidentally this speaks volumes about the tolerance of different communities compared ot each other.
Are you aware of a person who does not wear a hat involuntarily? THAT is what you were discussing in the op. I’d love to explain this to you further, but just want to make sure we are discussing the same thing
ubiq: Yes. If a kid is in a MO school where *no one* wears a hat, and he wants to, he often will not wear out out of such pressure.
What if the kid wants to wear yellow or blue or grey pants? Should anyone dare stop him from choosing his dressing preferences?
When someone who grew up wearing a black hat and black yarmulka and then changes by dropping them, he is making a statement against his frum community.
When in the military you can’t be creative in clothing. You wear what you are told to and given. The same uniform as every other soldier. Same for Hashem’s people. You identify with Hashem’s children.
Bottom line: When a Jew walks in public, weekday or Shabbos, he should be wearing a hat.
No! I think it’s ridiculous! Same with yalmekus will a girl not go out with you because you are wearing a chasidish yalmeku or a knit one?! If a girl wants to marry you only if you wear a black hat and you don’t want to than…
No Jewish man would have been caught dead wearing a black fedora a century ago. The style was a woman’s hat style popularized by the notorious licentious (even by today’s low standards!) apostate actress Sarah Bernhardt; the very term was the name of one of her characters and feminists of the time adopted the style as a mark of identification. Bernhardt is probably laughing in her grave that orthodox Jews who would have been horrified by her lifestyle and what she represented have adopted her style.
Why would she care that a hat which became popular as a men’s hat after she died is now popular with the frum community?
And the murderous Cossacks wore shtreimels. Firstly, black fedoras were much farther spread in society beyond a group of apostate feminists, and even if what you said was true, who really cares.
The Nazis wore pants. And boots. I hope no one else does.
I think the Maharshal (siman 72) said it best:
?????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???????? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ??? ?????? ???????? ??? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????
While I certainly understand the symbolism behind the manner of dress, I think people should put more emphasis on the internal than external factors.
I know plenty of people who wear a kippa seruga that are “Frummer” than others I know who wear a black hat.
While this is an extreme example, the guy selling treif chickens, as kosher, in Monsey wore a black hat, gave shiurim and was a very well respected member of the community. He may look the part, but that’s where it ended.
People shouldn’t be so hasty to judge and pigeonhole others by the external.
Barry
Hanistarim L’Hashem Elokeinu. We cant tell what is internal. People decide to wear or not wear a black hat knowing full well which gruor they are therby self-identifying with. There is nothing wrong with judging people as belonging to a group that they self-identify wih.
Of course we should eb careful to be openminded enough to reevaluate once you get to know people.
Your example had nothing to do with a black hat, its not like if he wore a kipa seruga and sold treif chickens people woud have expected it. (I hope)
ubiquitin: Are you kidding? You couldn’t figure out what I was saying? It wasn’t plain enough?
You can certainly tell if someone is a mentch, if they are honest and decent. Do they behave as a Jew should.
On these type web sites, you see people making excuses or justifying bad behavior because they are affiliated with certain groups, or look and dress the part. You also see people attack or make fun of those who may have different backgrounds and perspectives, especially if they don’t wear a particular group’s “uniform.”
A minor example; I was at a Chasunah years ago. A young guy with Smicha was called up for a Brocho under the Chupah. It was primarily a Yeshivish crowd. The person called up was a Kiruv Rabbi who helped the Kallah become Frum. The Bais Yaakov girls in the audience gasp when they saw the person going up for a Brocho. He was wearing a light colored suit. So despite all the good this person does, he was judged negatively by the color of his suit. I find that reprehensible.
To me, I find it embarrassing when someone “Frum” does something illegal or immoral. I won’t make excuses for that no matter who the person is. Granted, no one is perfect, but there are accepted norms and we should not be silent when someone makes a Chilul Hashem and harms people as well.
People should be treated based on their behavior, for the good or bad and it shouldn’t matter if they belong to your group or not. Good behavior is good behavior no matter what group you are affiliated with and no excuses or justifying bad behavior because they are supposedly closer to us. That makes us guilty as well.
ubiquitin, is it clearer for you now?
Bary
No it is less clear. Now your topic has absolutly nothing to do with the OP. (Though still an interesting discussion perhaps, one that I agree with)
Lets back up.
The OP was about differences between groups. I’ll quote:”why wont people go out with guys who don’t wear hats? can’t someone be religious without it? why does this define a person?”
I replied that the hat has come to serve as a self-chosen identifier of belonging to a certain “camp” There are differnces betwen these camps. It is childish to ignore these difernces and assume a Satmarer who never stepped outside Kiryas Joel can build a succesful home with a Modern Orthodox Girl who would like to make Kiddush Friday nights after a day spent farming her kibbutz. Both can be wonderful people yirei Shomayim, etc etc. But singing kumbaya and saying dont judge them based on dress is silly, and helps nobody.
Keep in mind wearing a hat or not, is not in born. If a person comes over to you with a name-tag on their chest that syas” Nice o mett you I am modern-orthodox” There is nothing wrong with assuming they are modern orthodox. This isnt judging. We are not talking about assuming they would sell trief meat (is that really what you thought?) we are talking about assuming someone with a “I am modern orthodox tag” is modern orthodox. A kipa seruga is a modern orthodox. Ditto for a black hat.
I am not sure how your comemnt fits in. I reread your second post It doesnt disagree with anything I said.
Are you starting a new conversation?
“Why would she care that a hat which became popular as a men’s hat after she died is now popular with the frum community?”
This shows that even the frum community is susceptible to fashion trends.
The yeshivishe community is not in sync with fashion trends. They are typically about two decades behind, and even then particular in only choosing conservative styles.
Barry:
“we should not be silent when someone makes a Chilul Hashem and harms people as well.”
Just out of curiosity, do you similarly believe that “we should not be silent” when somebody doesn’t keep the halachos of shabbos, kashrus, tzniyus, etc?
Joseph:
The fact the yeshivishe community has its own fashion trends does not take away from charliehall’s point that they do have fashion trends. Actually, it seems to support it.
R’ Meir Stern gives “to show the chashivus of the head” as one of the reasons to wear a hat…
chulentmoma613:
Black hats are a fashion choice. The people who wear think they are fashionable. Since many people don’t wear them, it stands out. If formal hats (fedoras, homburg, derbys, etc.) returned to popularity among American men, no one would attempt to fathom great meaning in the fashion choice of Jewish men who prefer to wear formal black hats.
Wear pants is also a fashion choice (referring to long pants, which is what most American men have been wearing since they switched in the early 19 century). Since most people in America also wear pants, it doesn’t stand out. If the styles change, and American men switched to kilts or to knickerbockers or to wearing long gowns (styles that were popular in the past), and frum well continued to wear pants that go down to the ankle, people would notice and ask “do long pants make you closer to G-d” or “do long pants help you learn Torah.”
ubiquitin: Like every other thread, it was an extension of a conversation, in that, people put too much emphasis on the external and look down on others that don’t see it the same way.
BTW, I do wear a black hat but have no problem with others who do not.
mw13: You don’t give mussar to someone who won’t accept it. Also, whoever does give mussar should have the tact to do it correctly, otherwise you just do more harm.
“we should not be silent when someone makes a Chilul Hashem and harms people as well.”
I said this with the thought of people making excuses or denying when faced with overwhelming evidence, for criminal behavior, including molestation’s when someone is from a group they identify with.
Barry, I’m well aware of what you were referring to. But I’m pointing out that declaring “we should not be silent” only when people do certain things wrong (molestation being one example) while remaining silent in the face of other issues (tzniyus being one example) is somewhat contradictory.
mw13: I suggest you go ask your Rov if it’s appropriate to give mussar, whether it’s on tznius or anything else, when you know the person won’t listen.
Also, the issue of whose standards of tznius is also a factor, like the wacko Jews wearing their version of a burka.
Also,yours is not a good analogy. A person lacking tznius harms themselves. The Jewish criminal harms others and yiddishkeit in general and making excuses or defending them is insidious.
Barry: a) the person being given tzniyus mussar (for violating the very basic standards according to all) might listen, b) the guy being giving mussar against stealing might not listen, so according to your argument why give it? c) the person violating tzniyus is harming bystanders who inadvertently witness the immodesty thus harming others and yiddishkeit d) if someone gambles illegally should he not be given mussar since he’s single and no one else is victimized?
Barry, why don’t you also suggest asking a Rov if its appropriate to give mussar to criminals? You don’t know that they’ll listen, either. Why are you so gung-ho in demanding that “we should not be silent” in one case of wrongdoing and so hesitating in another? Isn’t that a double standard?
“A person lacking tznius harms themselves. The Jewish criminal harms others and yiddishkeit in general and making excuses or defending them is insidious.”
The exact opposite argument could be made. The Jewish criminal lands only himself in prison, while those who dress un-tzniyusdik can harm everyone who sees them (as EretzHaK pointed out). Making excuses or defending them is also insidious.
mw13: This is getting a bit ridiculous and obviously too complicated for you.
I wasn’t talking about giving mussar to anyone. You brought that up. My point was making excuses and/or defending someone harming others. Speaking up on issues made public is to minimize and counter the Chillul Hashem that was made. Silence or excuse making only creates the public perception that we agree with the bad behavior and it gives fodder for the anti-semites out there.
Is it possible for you to understand a subject without twisting it into something else?
Barry, I was hoping we could have a civil conversation about what the correct reaction should be when somebody does something that is wrong. However that does not appear to be the case, seeing as I try to bow out of a discussion when the insults and accusations start flying.
Oh well.
mw13: We can have a civil conversation about anything, except that I won’t tolerate someone attributing something to me that I never said or that they’ve taken what was said grossly out of context or twisted into something else.
The correct reaction to something that was publicly done wrong is a worthwhile conversation. We were taking about the reaction to criminal behavior and the resulting Chillul Hashem, not about giving someone mussar over what we may thing is a Tznius issue.
An honest conversation is always welcome.
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