June 5, 2011 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #775653
Common, did I say that? The OP’s father doesn’t like it, and there is a “statement” that comes along with someone putting on a hat, that some people don’t appreciate; that is just reality. I didn’t realize you are so naive.June 5, 2011 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #775654
Did your father just dismiss it off hand, or did you already have a meaningful discussion? Does he realize how strongly you want it? Do you actually associate with a different crowd than your father, or is he right that you might come across as silly and stand out? Is this the only difference between you and your father?
There are many factors that could affect the correct approach.
Not always does turning around a sentence prove a point. When someone is asking how he can convince his father to agree with him Kibud Av does not come in. If someone tells his father he wants to ‘downgrade’ that is indeed alarming. If he asks advice how to convince his father to agree, the response would be to get his father to face the facts that he is not following his father’s path. Obviously, that doesn’t go easily if it wasn’t noticed until then.June 5, 2011 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #775655popa_bar_abbaParticipant
There is a statement that comes along with it. The word “stigma” bothered me.
But you are correct, I really was bothered by the other line which was not from you.June 5, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #775656
@ popa_bar_abba: I was simply restating those words from others which have said them when I have mentioned the hatJune 5, 2011 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #775657goldenkintMember
bochur1818. in my opinion ,first of all , the waY to approach this is gradually. start spending a bit more quaLITY TIME WITH YOUR FATHER, LEARN WITH HIM IF POSSIBLE, IF YOU DON’T ALREADY, AND LET HIM SEE THAT YOU ARE A GOOD ,SINCERE PERSON. WORK ON YOUR COMMUNICATION AND RELATIONSHIP SO HE FEELS RESPECTED, VALUED LOVED AND HONORED.He may feel threatened that his way isn’t good enough for you ,or he may believe that “A Hat does not make The man” so show him that you honor and repect him and that’s the first step. Step two, Tell over stories of Gedolim, and what you want to emulate in their behavior, at the shabbos table, as part of a dvar Torah, or quote a dvar Torah from a Godol you want to emulate.. There are many sources for such stories. Step three, tell your father you would like to wear a hat because it makes you feel a connection to these Gedolim, and be sure to mention Gedolim he admires and considers as his Rebeeim. If you do this gradually you’ll be preparing the head which deserves to wear a hat.
eventually , your father will hopefully realize that this is for you and won’t stand in your way.
We had a similar situation when my son wanted to wear a certain type of Yarmulka when he started high school. I was always against labeling and divisiveness and on purpose refused to let people tell me what specific headgear was supposed to represent. I always said a man wearing something on his head is supposed to show that he believes and remembers that Hashem is Above him. I’m not interested in knowing anything else. But of course we live in another world , not my fantasy world , so when my son started High School he asked us if he could switch yarmulkas. i asked him Why. He said because i stand out, i’m the only one in this yarmulka not that one. I answered him that it is a valid reason, not wanting to be odd man out and so he switched yarmulkas. the next time he came home from yeshiva, he had been in the house for several hours before someone else came in and commented on the new Yarmulka. I had never even noticed it, because to me he was my son and always will be no matter what yarmulka or hat he wears. ( P.s. it took me years to get used to the beard,(where did my cute little boy go
?) now hE is 34 Bli ayin Hara and I’m finally used to it after 10 years) good luck to you, it may take some time for your father to come aroundJune 5, 2011 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #775658hudiParticipant
There is nothing wrong with wearing a black hat. Don’t listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. If you want to wear it, then wear it.
If your father doesn’t object to wearing the hat, you can wear it. If he thinks it’s “silly” explain to him why it’s important to you. Don’t feel like you shouldn’t do what you desire (as long as it’s 100% ok) because another person may think less of you.June 5, 2011 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #775659
Wow, thanks for the advice! Goldenkint, can I ask you what Yarmulke your son used to wear, and what he wears now? Why originally did it bother you, but how were you able to see past it and let him make the switch? The main problem, however, is that there are many great Rabbanim and Talmudei Chachamim, especially in Eretz Yisrael who don’t wear a hat. So, how can I show that I should still be allowed to wear one?June 5, 2011 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #775660
I object to you considering someone deciding to take off their hat “downgrading.”June 5, 2011 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #775661
Objection overruled.June 5, 2011 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #775662
I put it in quotes for a reason. It was to take the place of two paragraphs. Most people understood just that. You either didn’t get it or just like having fun.June 5, 2011 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #775663me tooMember
After 18 hours & 61 posts, are you still waiting for a stranger who doesn’t know you, your parents & the circumstances to give you advice on communicating with your father?
One question from me though. Do you know why you “want” it?
Try writing it out and see if it would make sense to your father.
Meanwhile if you feel the need to do something for Kvod Shabbos or Kvod Tefila, how about a slightly different Yarmulka?June 5, 2011 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #775664
I would have understood it as such except you said it would be “alarming.”June 5, 2011 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #775665goldenkintMember
i can’t remember the exact type of yarmulka but suffice to say it was ‘blacker’ than we were used to. My son now learns full time in mirrer Yeshiva in yerushalayim , you can’t get much blacker than him. We are very proud of him. he is extremely frum, ehrlich and yes much “blacker” than the rest of the family but as long as the change is frummer not less frum we’re fine with it. it was a bit difficult for us at first because we sent him to a less black yeshiva , and my husband doesn’t wear a hat, but we got used to it. the main thing is respect, and know why you want the hat. what does it mean to you? as you said there are many Rabbonim and Talmedei Chachammim who don’t wear hats so what exactly are you looking for with the hat? if you can define it for yourself, and if you can not make divisiveness in the family but your motives are pure , it should work out. It also depends how old you are, and how you treat your family in other things. never forget that the Torah should be pleasant and a Talmid Chochom is supposed to spread Shalom in the world. Work on it as i Said gradually, but don’t push it or rush it. by the way, off the top of my head i can think of 4 of our family friends whose sons now wear hats even though the fathers don’t and everyone is fine with it. it has to be done with the proper intent and love and Hahem will help it work out.June 5, 2011 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #775666yhillerMember
@wellmeaning busybody: don’t be so hard on the boy. what’s wrong with asking for advice?June 5, 2011 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #775667ItcheSrulikMember
Joseph: Please go away until the adults (including bochur1818) are finished talking. Come back when you have something worthwhile to say.
bochur1818: As someone who switched from black hat to kipa sruga, let me offer the following advice. If your father thinks it’s “silly,” not “wrong,” he probably objects to the fact that the hat is basically superficial and serves as a symbol for a particular group. If that’s the case, then he’ll probably come around if you explain why you want to wear it and what it means to you. (There’s also the money issue. Hats are expensive.)June 5, 2011 11:33 pm at 11:33 pm #775668
Bochur1818, how many Black Hats in your shul?
In our shul, the Rabbi does not wear a Black Hat, but one family does (3 generations) and they are well respected.June 5, 2011 11:55 pm at 11:55 pm #775669
A black hat is a maaila that should be earned before one puts it on.June 6, 2011 12:23 am at 12:23 am #775670WolfishMusingsParticipant
How about a compromise… such as a hat of a different color? This way you get to wear a hat and your father doesn’t view it as a “black hat.”
Or is a gray hat the sign of an apikorus? (Perhaps I should get a gray hat?)
The WolfJune 6, 2011 1:28 am at 1:28 am #775671
Or how about a yellow hat? The man with the yellow hat was a very nice guy.June 6, 2011 1:30 am at 1:30 am #775672
monkeys can be difficult to care for…June 6, 2011 1:54 am at 1:54 am #775673
@ItcheSrulik: the view is that it’s “silly” and “wrong. I know it’s a longer discussion than this forum allows for, but what made you make the switch?
@Josh31: not many black hats in the shul. the Rav also doesn’t wear one. Remember, this is a Modern Orthodox institution we’re talking about
@WolfishMusings: thanks for the suggestion, but it wouldn’t exactly do the trick. I think that would stand out even more
@HaLeiVi: thanks for the humor….
Please comment with suggestions of talking points. What are different reasons I should bring up. Anything else besides for what was listed above?June 6, 2011 3:11 am at 3:11 am #775674
When you started the discussion I was under the impression that you go to a Yeshiva that is more Yeshivish than your upbringing. In that case, there is no greater point to bring up other than that you want to fit in with your crowd. If that is not the case, and you just like the idea of a hat, perhaps you should try to understand what your father is trying to convey to you. It really is silly to just put on a hat because of what you like about it, when it will make you stand out.
You mention the idea of the mindset it will give you by Davening, and the seriousness it impresses upon you. Don’t think you won’t get used to it. After a while it becomes like any other clothing, unless you reserve it for the occasion. Remember, when in Rome you do as the Romans do.June 6, 2011 3:12 am at 3:12 am #775675ItcheSrulikMember
First of all, no matter what talking points people give you, you should not say anything at all that isn’t what you feel. Teling your father why other people think they should wear a hat is just wasting both of your times. As for why I made the switch, it was basically for the same reason you want to put on a hat — to enhance your avoda. I won’t say any more because I don’t want to offend our hosts here or any other posters.June 6, 2011 5:44 am at 5:44 am #775676
@HaLeiVi – I got to the Yeshiva that my parents wanted me in. Not yeshivish, it’s modern orthodox. and thanks Itchesrulik, I totally agree.
ANYWAYS, THANKS FOR EVERYONE’S ADVICE AND GUT YUNTIF!June 6, 2011 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #775677apushatayidParticipant
If your father is adamant that you dont wear it, dont, until you ask a shaila if kibbud av applies here.June 6, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #775678brotherofursParticipant
goldenkint u gave great advice! u can probably use these techniques for any time you want to start a new mitzvah that parents don’t approve of at first.June 6, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #775679
Rabbi Yaakov Bender said in a shmuz once that a Jew should learn from kashrus. In kashrus, there are two signs for an animal to be kosher – the hooves are external, and chewing the cud is internal. An animal needs both. One without the other is nothing.
He said that a Jew needs to appear as a Jew externally, but that’s not enough. You need to live your life correctly also, internally, where others don’t see what’s going on. He said straight out, many people wear hats and jackets and it’s like a pig – it sticks out its feet to show the hooves. I remember listening to the recording of R’ Bender – he yelled, “LOOK AT ME! I’M KOSHER! DON’T YOU SEE MY BLACK HAT, WHITE SHIRT, AND JACKET? I’M KOSHER!.” But, he continued, it’s no better than a pig – they show the outside, but internally, they’re not good Jews.
The outside doesn’t need to be a hat and jacket. It’s anything to show that we are Jewish, and shows it in a good light. R’ Gifter used to make sure his students wore nice clothing, with their shirts tucked in properly. Wearing a beat-up black hat and a stained jacket is not the outside part a Jew should be showing. It’s better to go without a hat than to wear one that is beat-up.
Unfortunately, there are stories coming out all the time about people who wear their hats and jackets, but don’t have the internal kashrus a Jew needs. Yes, people associate the hat with hypocrisy at times. Let’s hope that this changes, and that everyone has both the internal and external kashrus!June 6, 2011 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #775680
If your father isn’t adamant that you shouldn’t wear it, then wear it, until you ask a shaila if kibbud av applies here.June 6, 2011 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #775681
Joseph, if you had a question if something was kosher or not, would you eat it until you found out the answer?June 6, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #775682
Feif: Read my post in relation to apy’s.June 6, 2011 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #775683
Joseph, if you had a question if something was kosher or not, would you eat it until you found out the answer?
Good comparison.June 6, 2011 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #775684Pac / ManMember
Taken out of context.June 6, 2011 8:04 pm at 8:04 pm #775685mikehall12382Member
i object your honourJune 6, 2011 8:17 pm at 8:17 pm #775686
Objection overruled.June 6, 2011 9:07 pm at 9:07 pm #775688
No, it’s not overruled. Sorry, Joseph, you’re not the judge here.June 6, 2011 9:17 pm at 9:17 pm #775689
You are to be held in contempt. Order in the court!June 7, 2011 1:52 am at 1:52 am #775690Midwest2Participant
When I was a teenager, I wanted to do certain things which aggravated my family. The response I got was, “Wait until you’re older, then decide what you want to do.” So for most things I waited. And guess what…. Some of them I still wanted to do, and I did them. And there were some I was very, very glad that I hadn’t done and was grateful to my family for warning me off.
What we think and want at 17 is sometimes not what we think and want at 25 (and usually for the rest of our lives). So let it rest for now. Pretend in your imagination that you’re wearing a black hat and act the way you think you would if you were literally wearing it. That way if you decide to put it on later you won’t have any trouble adjusting, unlike some people who unfortunately put it on automatically at bar mitzvah and then have trouble figuring out what it means.June 7, 2011 1:58 am at 1:58 am #775691Pac / ManMember
Maybe he can also pretend he is wearing a shirt without actually wearing it.June 7, 2011 2:09 am at 2:09 am #775692apushatayidParticipant
Perhaps he could, but if the AC is on high, he may not be able to pretend very long.June 7, 2011 2:49 am at 2:49 am #775693cherrybimParticipant
“until you ask a shaila if kibbud av applies here.”
Let’s at least get the concepts right. Our case is not a question of kibbud av which is Service related. Our case is Moras av which relates to heeding a father’s directives and not causing him tzar, anguish. And Joseph is also right, it takes a bokie in shulchan aruch to decide what to do in this case. There are good reasons on both sides of the issue and a competent Rav is needed to offer a solution.June 7, 2011 3:08 am at 3:08 am #775694
“this is a Modern Orthodox institution we’re talking about”
A lot of Modern Orthodox rabbis wear black hats.June 7, 2011 3:12 am at 3:12 am #775695
“Back to the hat, Rav Soloveitchik ZT”L from YU as well as the current Rosh Yeshiva, Rav Schachter, both wore hats as well.”
Many of the other great Roshei Yeshivot at YU wear black hats in including Rabbis Willig and Tendler.
Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l didn’t always wear a black hat; there are many photographs of him in a straw hat. He would be the first to agree that ones’ insides were more important than ones’ outsides, and many of his students didn’t wear a hat at all.June 7, 2011 3:14 am at 3:14 am #775696
“Taken out of context.”
Not out of context at all! We don’t get to pick and choose halachah.June 7, 2011 4:15 am at 4:15 am #775697
Taken out of context.
In what way? Please explain.June 7, 2011 4:26 am at 4:26 am #775698
Earlier we had from Pac-Man of all people, and in this regard I agree with him, “A black hat is a maaila that should be earned before one puts it on.”
When you have accomplished in Torah learning substantially more than a “run of the mill” Smicha, then a Black Hat can be considered.
A “run of the mill” Smicha is when your knowledge in Shulchan Aruch is no longer Botel B’Shishim (you know at least 1/60th of the Shulchan Aruch).June 7, 2011 5:00 am at 5:00 am #775700
Josh, I wouldn’t raise the bar that high to require one who isn’t yet zocha to wear a hat wait until he is a full fledged Talmid Chochom to wear it. A Yirei Shmayim should suffice.June 7, 2011 5:13 am at 5:13 am #775701
In what way? Please explain.
My comment was a rhetorical, rather than literal, response to apushtayid. If you notice it was reversed verbatim.June 7, 2011 6:43 am at 6:43 am #775702
“A Yirei Shmayim should suffice.”
We as human beings have no way of determining who is a Yirei Shmayim, one who truly fears HaShem,
at least since the end of Nevuah (prophecy).
Because of this, there are many who are clearly part of the Torah community, but are uncomfortable with the “Charedei” label.June 7, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #775703
My comment was a rhetorical, rather than literal, response to apushtayid. If you notice it was reversed verbatim.
OK, so for thick headed people like me, please explain what point you were trying to get across.
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