August 20, 2008 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #588046
What is with the people who calls anyone who disagrees with them a “liberal american”?
Here are some things you should know:
Do you know that it is because of “liberal america” we as Jewish people can practice our religion without prejudice.
There are many other things Liberals have helped come about in America; Equality for all (that’s including Jews), many safety acts, retirement benefits, and more.
Plus your wives can; get an education, vote, work, drive, etc. – if this was never allowed, how would the men in kollel be supported ? The husbands would have to drive everywhere, including driving their kids to school, driving to the supermarket, etc.
I know there’s going to be a lot of hostility towards this post, but I just thought you should know the facts before making another ignorant remark on this matter.
In conclusion, I don’t agree with all of liberalism, nor do I conform with all of conservatism, Extremest in any group, religion and such, is not always a good thing. You have suicide bombers, you have Obama wanting to “negotiate” with terrorists, and you have some Jewish people pushing others away from the religion because of their harsh judgmental treatment towards them. If someone has a remark that differs from yours, don’t be so quick to judge and be thoughtless with your responses, it makes you sound foolish and juvenile.August 20, 2008 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #620570
Well said, squeak. People seem to conveniently forget that there’s no simple dichotomy.August 21, 2008 12:23 am at 12:23 am #620571
if women stayed home and there was no welfare or Medicaid, who pays for kollel?August 21, 2008 2:28 am at 2:28 am #620572
UJM, you need some smiling lessons. Is there a smiling school near you?August 21, 2008 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #620573
There is a large range in what can constitute liberal views. People like Joseph and ujm call people who disagree with them liberals. Have any of those people ever said they’re in favor of abortion? In favor of gay rights or gay marriage? I don’t think so. They said that you can be a frum Jew and still daven without a hat and jacket, and other things like that. There’s a big difference between that and saying abortion is ok.
Just for the record, I once heard a discussion about abortion between two relatives of mine, one of which is a Rav. He said that halachically, a fetus does not get a neshama until (I think) a month or two after conception. That can mean up to two months into the pregnancy (conception is not when they start counting how many weeks you are, it’s generally 2 weeks later.) He said that halachically, an abortion before then would not be considered murder. It would be considered a form of birth control. Now, some forms of birth control are allowed in certain cases. This method, however, is not. But to say it’s murder that early is not halachically correct. The problem is that abortions are legal after that point.
Now, the question arises, is birth control also assur for non-Jews? If it’s not, then abortions in the first month or two can be legal by US law without any halachic issues.
My personal opinion is that abortions in the first month or two should be legal only in extreme cases, such as for rape victims. Obviously, if it affects the mother’s health and puts her in danger, it should be allowed regardless of the time frame.August 21, 2008 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #620574
anon for thisParticipant
Feif Un, there are many conservatives who believe that forms of contraception used by many in the frum community are also a form of abortion, & are legislating to make these medications less accessable. Many conservatives also believe that most forms of assisted reproductive technology, including those sponsored by worthy organizations such as Bonei Olam, are contrary to their religion.
Personally I think that the separation of church & state was intended to protect minority religions such as ours from prostelytizing or coercion from the majority. I don’t understand those who are so eager to tear it down.August 21, 2008 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #620575
to feif un #1 and who said this ‘rav’ has authority to pasken such serious matters. #2 this is chutzpah for you you come on this ehrliche torah site and give ‘opinion’ on such serious matters. no, freedom of speech does not apply..for the record all of you who come with this ‘magid suir’ that ‘rav’ this ‘poisek’ with out mentioning who so we can verify, is null and voidAugust 22, 2008 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #620576
jent1150, you probably never heard of him. He happens to be a talmud of R’ Shneur Kotler zt”l, as well as a talmud of R’ Yaakov Kamenetsky zt”l. He got semichah, although I’m not sure exactly which yeshiva he got it from, Torah VaDaas or BMG.August 22, 2008 12:21 pm at 12:21 pm #620577
I don’t see why it’s a chutzpa. Why is this such a “serious” issue? It’s something which can be debated halachically. Yet, when it comes to loshon hara and motzei shem ra on big Rabbonim (such as R’ Tendler), most “ehrliche” people here have no problem. That is something which isn’t even debatable. It seems to me that is a much more “serious” issue.August 22, 2008 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #620578
Jent 1150, do you know even know what you are talkig about? It is absolutely clear from Parshat Mishpatim and the mishnah in taharos(i think) that it is never murder until the bay is born. That is AN ABSOLUTE FACT. So, the fetus is not considered a person until it shows its head otuside the womb. (check your mishnayos and halacha).Now, this is not to say that abortion,at any time, is a simple matter. It is not. But it can never be called murder. Contraception is allowed al pi halacha.Check your Parshyot and your gemoros. They used “kos shel ikrin” quite rotuinely and ,of course, check the gemoro in jevomos, “sholsh noshim meshamshos bemoch”. There is a nmachlokes if it means that they CAN or they SHOULD. jent 1150, in the past, you have shown that you know your sources. Go and check them and I’d love to see your report AFTER you have seen these sources. Gut shabbos.
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