Blame the shadchanim

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  • #609708

    BigGolem
    Participant

    If shadchans are the gatekeepers of the shidduch process then much of this shidduch mess(crisis) wrests on their shoulders.

    A friend of mine got married 2 years ago. You never met a nicer mensh. A shadchan friend of my mother was truly surprised, shocked actually, that he got married at all. His parents are divorced, and he left yeshiva shortly after high school and went straight to

    college. My mother’s friend believed that he was simply not marriageable material.

    This is the attitude of too many shadchans.

    #963499

    rebdoniel
    Member

    This is why there are other ways for people to meet, such as Frumster, mutual friends, etc.

    #963500

    How about mixed seating at wedding receptions, allowing singles to meet naturally?

    At my wedding, we put together a “singles table” hoping that some of our friends would hit it off with each other. No word yet on whether or not it was successful.

    #963501

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    At my wedding, we put together a “singles table” hoping that some of our friends would hit it off with each other. No word yet on whether or not it was successful.

    I’m guessing in your circles it is normal that young men and women have social relationships anyway. So of course you sat them together–how else would you sit them?

    Reminds me. So once upon a time I was going to a wedding of a friend from similar circles to that. And the response card asked how you wanted to sit (mixed or separate). So I was too embarrassed to say I wanted to sit with my friends, even if there would be women at the table. So they put me with random dudes at a mens table. So I sat with my friends :-).

    #963502

    Lol! That is too funny!

    Yes, it is normal in my circles for men and women to have social relationships. What I am saying is that if more yeshivish circles were to allow mixed seating at weddings– for the purpose of finding a marriage partner, not for the purpose of mere socializing– it might help to mitigate the shidduch crisis.

    #963503

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Well, it depends on your theory of the shidduch crisis. Tell us your theory, and we’ll see if it would help.

    Also, there really is no shortage of organized singles events for people who like that stuff.

    #963504

    writersoul
    Member

    My parents have a lot of funny stories about singles shabbatonim they went on way back when…

    Do they even have those anymore?

    (Then my parents met al yedei my aunt talking to my moms neighbor at a Kiddush, with one saying, “do you have anyone for my brother?” and the other saying “oh what about this nice girl from my neighborhood?” and the rest is history.)

    The point is, there are methods beyond professional shadchanim- my mom, for instance, is a semi-professional (I have no idea how to describe it) shadchan, in that she has a database of guys and girls and runs shidduch meetings but she does NOT interview people or tell them that they have no chance of getting married unless they fit the BJJ/BMG cookie cutter. Her credo is that networking is the best- that’s how she got married. Sometimes you can’t really tell the unique things about people on paper (I remember looking through her [initial only] spread sheet for someone and I couldn’t find her- the people all looked the same) and if you have people who really love and respect and are enthusiastic about a person you can really get more of an understanding of what they’re like.

    The whole way we do shidduchim has become really sterile- I hope by the time I enter that parsha it’s a lot better :).

    #963505

    Obviously I don’t know or claim to know everything that’s wrong with shidduchim. I think a big part of it is that boys are too picky. Another big issue– the one that is relevant to this subject– is that there is simply too much pressure on both the boys and the girls. Sure, there are “organized singles events”. But if you allow boys and girls to meet more naturally at a wedding, maybe they will be more relaxed and there will be less pressure. This way, when they introduce themselves, their true personalities will be allowed to come through and they are more likely to get along well.

    #963506

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Jewishfeminist02

    Very well said.

    #963507

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    If shadchans are the gatekeepers of the shidduch process then much of this shidduch mess(crisis) wrests on their shoulders.

    1. Let’s wrestle it away from them.

    2. Shidduchim come from Hashem (this should really be #1 but for the wrestling theme)

    3. Shadchan = people. Anyone can be a shadchan. So what you mean to say is, people thought this person wasn’t marriageable, until they got married. Fortunately for humanity, that happens all the time. 🙂 Because of point #2.

    #963508

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Seating young men and women together at a wedding where many over imbibe and are otherwise uninhibited can very well lead to future weddings. At the end of a shotgun.

    #963509

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    JF: I’m not aware that there is a crisis of that type. Perhaps there is a problem that there are more women than men but I am not aware that there is a problem of finding each other.

    #963510

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think a big part of it is that boys are too picky.

    And you think seating them with women at weddings will cure that?

    #963511

    playtime
    Member

    DaasYochid- And you think seating them with women at weddings will cure that?

    Yeah. Because there would be a smorgasboard of women to choose from.

    #963512

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That would make them even pickier.

    Besides, the shmorgs are already mixed. 😉

    #963513

    There was no liquor at my wedding except for the wine we drank under the chuppah and a few bottles of Scotch at the tisch. Certainly none of the singles (or other guests, for that matter) were drunk or otherwise “uninhibited”.

    For those who are confused, please go back and reread my original post. I mentioned two shidduch issues– one that is relevant to mixed weddings, and one that is not relevant to mixed weddings.

    Seating men and women together at weddings will not make the boys any more or less picky. It will, however, take the strain and pressure off of both the boys and the girls and allow them to “be themselves”, which will facilitate natural shidduchim.

    #963514

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Jfem, what consequences do you think we suffer because on shidduch dates, supossedly, they are “not themselves”?

    #963515

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It will, however, take the strain and pressure off of both the boys and the girls and allow them to “be themselves”, which will facilitate natural shidduchim.

    I’m not very convinced. They already have social relationships with each other; why would they not “be themselves” around each other–of course they are.

    #963516

    Please read what I am writing. I am making this suggestion for those social circles in which men and women DO NOT routinely have social relationships with each other. Obviously if they already do, this will not make a difference.

    I’ll tell you why it’s important for singles to be themselves on dates. A shadchan calls up a boy and says “I have a great girl for you, she’s super outgoing and friendly!” He sets up a date with her, she gets there and barely says a word. Why? Because she’s nervous. He’s not going to want another date with her because he specifically told the shadchan that he wants a girl who’s outgoing. Conversely, a quiet girl might get nervous on a date and start babbling about anything under the sun. She will not get a second date with a boy who prefers a quiet girl.

    If we allow men and women a little bit of unstructured time to meet and socialize (at a wedding, mind you, where there are plenty of chaperones and nothing untoward can happen) maybe they will feel more comfortable in the dating scene and the above scenarios will not happen.

    #963517

    BigGolem
    Participant

    bump

    #963518

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    I think the “leaders” and “system” that let Shadchanim be in charge are to blame.

    I also think that if we eliminated the “professional” Shadchan and just let friends set each other up, or meet naturally, etc without the reliance and safety net of a “shadchan”, the Shidduch scene would look better.

    #963519

    musser zoger
    Participant

    Gemara in Taanis says on TU B’Av single women used to dance in the fields and eligible men would choose them for wives. The Chareidim now would probably be raging against Chazal for being so liberal and untznius. I think if we got back to sensible meeting and dating we wouldn’t have a shidduch crisis.

    #963520

    haifagirl
    Participant

    There was no liquor at my wedding except for the wine we drank under the chuppah and a few bottles of Scotch at the tisch.

    I am very grateful for my male friends who always make sure to check if there is alcohol for the women, and if not, bring me some.

    Why is it that alcohol is served to the men and not the women? It should be both or neither.

    #963521

    computer777
    Member

    GeshmakMan: I agree with you totally. People should ONLY deal with friends when listening to shidduchim.

    #963522

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Jfem, you are assuming that on a large scale, men and women who are dating are not displaying their true personalities, and this is causing then not to marry.

    I think you’re misinformed in both counts.

    Most young men and women who don’t socialize outside of shidduchim get over their awkwardness after a couple of dates. A good shadchan will usually be able to prevent any initial awkwardness from derailing a good potential shidduch.

    Also, within a year or two of beginning the shidduch process, the vast majority of singles (especially boys) are married, certainly, it seems, at a much higher rate than those who do socialize outside of shidduchim.

    #963523

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    MZ, I think we’d be okay with one day of socializing and everyone finding a shidduch that day.

    #963524

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why is it that alcohol is served to the men and not the women?

    You probably wouldn’t be too thrilled if I answered that it’s because ???? ???? ????.

    #963525

    musser zoger
    Participant

    DY, Great! Which yeshiva will sponsor the one day where the single guys watch the single girls dancing. Think Brisk,Mir or Ponevezh will take the lead…Not.

    #963526

    Mammele
    Participant

    Because the assumption is that men drink more alcohol than women.

    And many men are jealous of the “sweet table” at the reception that is usually in the women’s section.

    #963527

    yacr85
    Participant

    Yeah and we should stop calling those things that girls have-resumes! They are not resumes. They are bios!

    A resume tells me strengths, capabilities, qualities and experiences of the person.

    A document that says

    School: same as 300 other girls

    High School: Same as 250 other girls

    Seminary: Same as 90 other girls (in my year)

    IS NOT A RESUME!

    I read through so many of them and the only thing different is the name.

    It tells you nothing about the person at all! They are dumb, boring, and absolutely ridiculous.

    #963528

    We brought a bottle of kosher champagne to the hotel. It was our first time drinking real champagne (not the fake, sweet bubbly stuff) and we both really enjoyed it. I tried a little bit of the Scotch after the wedding also, but I’m not much of a Scotch drinker so I didn’t really feel like I was missing out on anything. I don’t think any of our female guests would have wanted to drink the Scotch anyway.

    Incidentally, we originally were going to have wine on the tables, but instead we decided to use that money for sefarim because we otherwise couldn’t have afforded to buy my husband a chosson shas.

    #963529

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It tells you nothing about the person at all! They are dumb, boring, and absolutely ridiculous.

    It doesn’t say that about them, either.

    #963530

    rebdoniel
    Member

    A lot of people haven’t accomplished anything great or unique in their lives, especially at the age when a lot of people in the frum communities start dating. I’m fortunate in that I’ve been involved in things like community organizing, legislative advocacy, etc. since adolescence, but a lot of our youngsters are sheltered and don’t engage in those types of opportunities. I agree that a resume in many cases is futile.

    #963531

    I’m pretty sure yacr85 meant “they” to refer to the resumes, not the girls, as in “the resumes are dumb, boring, and utterly ridiculous”.

    I only used a shidduch resume once, and in that case I was declined by the boy. The rest of the boys I dated did not ask for the resume.

    #963532

    morahmom
    Participant

    I think that it would help Klal Yisroel if EVERYBODY became a shadchan. Honestly, other than having a pile of pink index cards and blue index cards as your “database”, what kind of higher education is required here? Shidduchim come about from some highly unlikely meetings – often at weddings, but I’m not getting into the whole mixed seating thing.

    Seriously, people, the only way to get a track record going is to just keep trying. Obviously you have to have a theory as to why these 2 ppl might click… but at the end of the day, just try it. You never know.

    #963533

    haifagirl
    Participant

    I had a friend whose daughter became “of age.” She called the shadchan and told the woman all about her daughter. She told the shadchan her daughter was overweight, with a learning disability, and “different.”

    The shadchan was so grateful for her honesty. She said, “You know, I’m going to remember your daughter. All the other girls sound alike.”

    It didn’t take long before my friend’s daughter found her shidduch. In fact, she got married before some of the “better” girls who lived near her and were the same age.

    #963534

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    The resume is no different than most resume’s of people looking for their first job. I have seen hundreds of such resumes.

    Possibly you would to call them CVs instead, but they you just sound snobby.

    The purpose is to give you enough information for you to be able to make inquiries. And most of the shiddich “resumes” do give enough information. They are the beginning of the inquiry process, not the last step.

    On another point, RD is being his usual uninformed arrogant self. So many of these young people are quite accomplished. What they aren’t is presumptuous like you are. In addition, they do not approach marriage like a job as you would seem to.

    #963535

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #963536

    Ender
    Participant

    Good news JFem. You said there should be a day that circles that usually don’t mingle should have that opportunity. Well that is what Tu be’av is all about. The girls would dance in the fields for the guys, and the guys would pick them up. Problem solved.

    #963537

    DaasYochid: ?

    #963538

    rebdoniel
    Member

    If people lack anything exciting or unique to put on a resume, it will go into the trash heap.

    I’ve had resumes forwarded to me, and I can concur with the above poster, for instance: if they all say went to Shulamith, then to Stern for a BA in English, does bikur holim, etc. that gets boring and repetitive after a while. A resume ought to convey what makes a person unique. And let’s be honest: how many people at age 21 have really done anything yet with their lives?

    A good friend of mine got engaged 2 months ago, and he was 37, his kallah 39. He has semikha, moonlights as a hazzan, and is an accomplished attorney. He was previously a congregational rabbi for a couple of years. The kallah has a PhD in History, has authored 3 books, and has been a tenured professor for a few years.

    I’d prefer to finish my own medical training prior to going back into the realm of shiddukhim. I think a person should find themselves and identify their purpose in life prior to bringing another person into the mix. I learned this the hard way, through life exeprience, and I got burned along the way, but I am glad I learned that now. I don’t want to be settled down and married at 23. I want to achieve more in terms of education, learning, and parnassa prior to being bogged down by the constraints of married life.

    And marriage is largely like a job in many ways. I’ve long ago abandoned any romantic notions of shiddukhim. If two people have comparable worldviews, envision their lives similarly enough, find each other physically attractive, and value the other person’s life experiences, then that ought to be good enough to make a shiddukh.

    #963539

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Jfem, when I interpreted “dumb, boring, and absolutely ridiculous” as referring to the girls, I was kidding.

    #963540

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Rd,

    If you would prepare a resume as you listed, most sane people I know would file it in the keep far away from, unsuitable for marriage file.

    But, that’s just my read on things and it really not my gesheft at this point.

    #963541

    writersoul
    Member

    nisht: EEEEWWW.

    That’s disgusting.

    Yes, that’s definitely YOUR read on things.

    That was NOT necessary.

    #963542

    interjection
    Participant

    “If two people have comparable worldviews, envision their lives similarly enough, find each other physically attractive, and value the other person’s life experiences, then that ought to be good enough to make a shiddukh”

    Couldn’t agree more. When I spoke to the shadchan I didn’t tell her a thing of what I wanted. I instead told her ‘this is who i am, this is what I’ve done, this is where I’m headed and this is why I want to get there. Given what I’ve told you about me, I am looking for someone who I can best help fulfill his future and who can best help fulfill mine’

    #963543

    “bogged down by the constraints of married life”

    Well, if that’s how you feel about it, I hope you do take your time getting married! I absolutely LOVE my marriage and don’t feel “constrained” at all. But you really do have to be ready for it. Hatzlacha with your career goals in the meantime.

    #963544

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I absolutely LOVE my marriage and don’t feel “constrained” at all.

    May you and your husband always feel that way.

    #963545

    rebdoniel
    Member

    I am glad interjection understands.

    Marriage is hard work. Any interpersonal relationship is, due to competing personalities, needs, interests, etc. No matter how compatible 2 people are, they are different. G-d made each one of us unique, and the Talmud attests to this profound humanism: “For if a man strikes many coins from one mold, they all resemble each other, but HKBH, fashioned every person in the stamp of the first man, and yet not one of them resembles his fellow.”

    We’re told that it’s as difficult as kriat yam suf to make a shidduch (Kasha zivugon shel adam ke Kriat Yam Suf), but I’d say maintaining a marriage may very well be more difficult.

    And a person doesn’t discuss their attitudes in general on a shiddukh resume. They usually give information about education, accomplishments, religious weltanschauung, interests, goals, etc.

    As for me, it is very important for me to be Dr. Daniel ben Ploni, and that is a personal goal I refuse to relinquish. And I would like to travel, live in Manhattan, spend more time in learning, and do humanitarian work prior to marriage. It is not always possible to do these things when you have a wife and kids to support, hence “constraints.” If I decide I want to move away to go to medical school, all I have to do now is hug and kiss my mother and shake my father’s hand. With a wife and kids, you have to be grounded and settled down in a community.

    #963546

    DaasYochid, Amen! Thank you!

    rebdoniel, marriage absolutely is hard work, but it is so, so worth the effort. My husband and I may be young, and we certainly haven’t accomplished everything we both want to as individuals. But we have had many long conversations about how we will pursue those goals while raising a family at the same time. Marriage is a game-changer and babies are also a game-changer. But it does not mean that we have to give up on all of the activities we enjoyed as singles, or that plans for the future need to be scrapped. My husband is still in graduate school, but i”yh we will support ourselves through his loan stipend and my work.

    We haven’t “settled down” yet and won’t do so for another few years, but this gives us more time to carefully consider our options and decide on a community that is truly right for us. If we have been blessed with a child by the time we are ready to make a commitment, so much the better! Both my brother and I were born outside of the community my parents ultimately chose. I know many families that moved while they still had young children. Being grounded at the onset of a marriage is nice, but it’s not a necessity.

    I didn’t get married out of convenience. I got married because I was truly ready to be a wife and mother, and because I found my bashert. Many of my friends are still single, and happily so. But this was totally the right decision for me. “If not now, when?”

    #963547

    BigGolem
    Participant

    The discussion veered off to resumes, let’s bring it back to shadchanim.

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