August 24, 2020 12:53 pm at 12:53 pm #1895109
Which do you think is worse?
Also, does the ideology of violence to make change work better than peaceful demonstrations?August 24, 2020 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #1895206
Peaceful demonstrations seem to stay on track toward the original goal in the long run.
Violence could be more effective, when the problem is that nobody is willing to talk for/to you.
The ideology of violence (as far as I can tell) is reserved for when the subjugated, or those who think they are subjugated, understands the oppositions thinking a certain way. And according to that understanding, the opposition would never really give ground, because it undermines their whole sense of self. This is also behind the ideology of war. As well as competitive sports. (The yankees think the red sox would not allow the yankees to win the world series, as that is part of the red sox’ identity.)August 24, 2020 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1895224akupermaParticipant
If the Israelis come up with a peace plan that the Palestinian people support in a free election, the conflict with Hamas will disappear. To the extent zionism requires the domination of the Palestinians, the zionists might have a problem.
BLM (and also “Antifa”) is basically a racist organization, similar to the mid-20th century National Socialists in Germany (a.k.a. Nazis), and will never be satisfied and can never be accommodated, though they might be discredited and certainly can be crushed. Their goals, poorly defined as they are, are to re-write modern history and produce a different result, and anyone who stands in their way needs to be cancelled.August 24, 2020 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1895238
Palestinians, free elections? Ha!August 24, 2020 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1895239
Antifa is not an organization, and they do not have any stated ‘goals’. If this is what gives you nightmares, than lay off the bottle.August 24, 2020 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #1895283smerelParticipant
<i>If the Israelis come up with a peace plan that the Palestinian people support in a free election, the conflict with Hamas will disappear.</i>
This is about the same as saying had the Jews figured out a way to appease the Nazis the holocaust never would have happened. The holocaust was the result of their failure to do soAugust 24, 2020 11:25 pm at 11:25 pm #1895293
“Palestinians, free elections? Ha!”
They had one — in 2006. Party lists associated with terrorist groups got 97% of the vote.August 24, 2020 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #1895298
As n0mesorah pointed out, Antifa isn’t an organization. It is a bunch of anarchists who like to riot, now known to also contain a bunch of far right folks who join in in an attempt to discredit everyone on the left.
BLM isn’t Nazi at all. It is run by Marxists whose hero is a convicted cop killer now living as a fugitive in Cuba. Prior to the Nazis coming to power the German Marxists fought street battles with rocks, clubs, and the like. (Both sides would have used guns but they had been banned at the insistence of the US, UK, and France in 1919.) I have been calling out BLM’s national leadership since 2014August 25, 2020 8:39 am at 8:39 am #1895371Avi KParticipant
Akuperma, if there are free elections the Fakestinians (they are a fake people – they are descendants of Lebanese and Syrians who came for economic opportunities) Hamas will win hands down. That will signal all-out war.
Charlie, there is not much difference between Nazism (National Socialism) and Communism. Hitler and Stalin were birds of a feather. The latter even planned a second holocaust but died (he was found in a coma on Purim and died a few days later) before he could carry it out. The fact that the two parties engaged in sreet battles just shows how bad internecine arguments can get. Look what happened to Trotsky. BLM is more similar to the Nazis as they are overt black supremacists.August 25, 2020 9:36 am at 9:36 am #1895427
“they are a fake people – they are descendants of Lebanese and Syrians who came for economic opportunities”
That is completely untrue. None of these terms for nationalities were in use until late modern times; the earliest use of the term “Palestinian” appears to have been 1911; Syrian nationalism and Lebanese nationalism are both from the second half of the 19th century — and all three originated with Christians! But in any case the entire region was part of the Ottoman Empire. Moving from Damascus to Jerusalem was like moving from Baltimore to Boston. Not an issue at all. To call Palestinians “fake” with no right to live in the Land is the same kind of nonsense that we hear from Hamas when it insists that Israelis are colonialists! It is similar to telling me that I have no right to live in New York because I was born in Pennsylvania. (The latest twist on this is that the Trumpies will claim that I really was not born in Pennsylvania because my family moved to Maryland when I was a year old.)
Palestinian Arab Muslim families are big into geneology and many can trace their ancestry all the way back to early Ottoman times. This helps to facilitate cousin marriage, which is also very popular among Israeli and Palestinian Arabs. The Ottoman censuses found that the 16th century population was almost entirely Muslim, with few Christians or Jews, and population growth of Muslims is completely explainable through relatively low rates of natural increase.
The term “Palestinian” is older than that of most national identities. It is older than the term “Israeli”. We don’t have to come up with nonsense ahistorical arguments to justify Zionism. And we should not when they provide ammunition to our enemies.August 25, 2020 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1895473
Oh Charlie, -“the earliest use of the term “Palestinian” appears to have been 1911; Syrian nationalism and Lebanese nationalism are both from the second half of the 19th century — and all three originated with Christians! But in any case the entire region was part of the Ottoman Empire
Palestinian Arab Muslim families are big into geneology and many can trace their ancestry all the way back to early Ottoman times”
You’re partially right.
The fact is Syria, Lebanon and So-called Palestinians have No rights to any of those Lands!
The Jews have the rights to EY. That’s from the Torah.
It’s So funny that the Zionists only follow the Torah when it comes to Land Rights!
They were part of Ottoman Empire. The people that lived in that region were Nomads or Turkish.
The only True Arabs are from Saudi Arabia. Iranians are Persians.
And all those Countries were Created by Britain & France.
It shows who the Jews enemies are – Britain & France.
They gave lands to Nomads, but they Refused Jews any Rights in EY!August 26, 2020 9:55 am at 9:55 am #1895679Avi KParticipant
You do not know history. The term “Israeli” was first used in the Tanach. There were two different nation called “Plishtim” (Philistines) but “Palestine” was first applied by the Romans as part of their attempt to erase all memory of it belonging to the Jewish people. The term “Palestinian” later was a regional description like “New Yorker”.The First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations (in Jerusalem, February 1919), adopted the following resolution: “We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time [my note: in fact, it was part of the Ottoman district of Syria, in fact, the NILI spies were tried and hanged in Damasus as that was the area capital]. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds”. Under the Mandate, Jews who held Mandatory citizenship were also called Palestinians.The term “Palestinian people” in reference to a segment of the Arab people was first used by the PLO in 1967.August 26, 2020 9:59 am at 9:59 am #1895754
1. There is a difference between the idea that lives matter with an emphasis of groups who have been treated unfairly.
2. BLM as a movement has been tainted by hatred. Though not all BLM activists are necessarily haters.
3. Fedayeen, PFLP,PLO,Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa brigade , Tanzim… or any other Arab “palestinian” violent group were/are about between ethnic cleansing and eliminating the Jews in Israel. No matter under what banner they have used.August 26, 2020 11:15 am at 11:15 am #1895775YonNewsParticipant
Dear Charliehal. Re Arab Immigrants grandchildren called since the 1960s as palestinians….
Palestinians first referred to Jew or Arab.
Hiwever, after Shukairy (Shukeiri) was fired (Dec.16.1962) from his UN post for saluting. (Nov.30.1962) Nazi Tacuara gang (who, months earlier has kidnapped, tortured, carved swastika on a girl as revenge for Eichmann’s death), months later appeared a “palestine” separated entity identity – idea.
Joan Peters 1985 book and Mark Twain’s 1800s testimony have neen vilified by Arabists as well as by extremist anti Israel Haaretz types. But it is fairly relatively new. Since the 1990s. Or shall I say “too late”…
To say that the 1880s Jewish immigration didn’t boost Arab immigration, is ludicrous.
I’m not saying that each and everyone of the Arab who was in Israel/palestine at 1948 were all 100% children of immigrants. But some say at least most of them can’t trace back more than 2 generations. The (original!) last names of prominent palestinian Arab families also tell of their origins.
it is very difficult to make a case out for the
misery of the Arabs if at the same time their
compatriots from adjoining states could not be
kept from going in to share that misery.
— British Governor of the Sinai from 1922 to 1936
… So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have
crowded into the country and multiplied till their
population has increased more than even all world Jewry
could lift up the Jewish population.
— Winston Churchill
FM Gottheil: The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931August 26, 2020 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1895786
You are on the wrong topic or the wrong site.August 26, 2020 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1895969
Dear n0mesorah, topic was BLM vs HAMAS. so I replied on both.August 27, 2020 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1896051
I was pointing out the irony, that many participants on this site (Yourself excluded.) have no clue about the ideas behind BLM. They extract an ideology based on what is happening on our streets. (Or they just make it up.) This topic was created on the premise that it is impossible to line up BLM with any non violent ideas.
The double irony is that this mindset is directly related to the increases in street violence. When people feel that their message is falling on deaf ears, they may resort to ‘forcing’ people to pay closer attention to their movement.August 27, 2020 8:03 am at 8:03 am #1896078interjectionParticipant
“When people feel that their message is falling on deaf ears, they may resort to ‘forcing’ people to pay closer attention to their movement.”
It seems that you understand the language of rioting. (I am NOT saying that you condone violence. I am only saying you seem to understand their message.) Can you explain exactly what it is that the rioters goals are?
I feel really bad for African Americans and other minorities who live in the “hood”. The neighborhoods are filled with dangerous criminals, tons of garbage and destroyed buildings. They live in a western country that looks like a warzone.
For one semester, I attended a community college in a sketchy neighborhood. During that semester, at least every other week on the bulletin would be written that people had been murdered in the neighborhood. In fact, three times during the semester, the school was on lockdown because a murderer was nearby. Once, he was hiding in the parking lot
Another time, while I was in class, I found out that a murderer had ran through the school hallways while being chased by the cops. The third time, the cops had closed the nearby streets to traffic because a serial killer had escaped from a prison in a neighboring state and was hiding in buildings less than a black away from my school.
I was young and naive when I went to that college so I thought those experiences made the college more of an adventure while I noticed the black kids would be extremely on edge whenever these things happened. The time that the murderer was hiding in the parking lot, I was in the bathroom with some black girls who were crying, terrified to leave because they were worried that they might die. I reassured them that I wasnt afraid but, one of them explained that someone’s boyfriend (I cant remember if it was hers, a friend’s or a cousin’s boyfriend) had been murdered a few blocks from the school. I felt terrible, and I feel terrible that this is happening only 4 miles from my parents cushy neighborhood where I grew up.
I understand why they’re rioting. They live a couple miles away from the beautiful downtown and their neighborhood is dangerous and dilapidated and many people dont know who their father is. I get it that they think that the cards are stacked against them with it being exceedingly difficult to achieve a better life. To me, that sounds like a foolproof recipe to create an aggressive teenager. Still, other than the fact that they’re angry, I don’t understand the message of the rioters. Do they want more police? Do they want to abolish police? Do they want signs on the street? I’m pretty sure that they dont speak for the average black person or else we wouldn’t be seeing the same trouble makers showing up at every riot. I’m pretty sure that the silent majority of the black community would rather that these rioters not make it seem that the only language that blacks speak is that of violence.
One last thing, if the media and Democrat politicians had integrity, they would talk at least as much about the police that are killed by blacks then they talk about blacks killed by police.August 27, 2020 9:35 am at 9:35 am #1896150MilhouseParticipant
akuperma, the dichotomy you create is false. The “Palestinians”‘ are no less racist than BLM. In fact they’re more racist. Their ideology requires that Jews be allowed to live only as their subjects, and the very idea of a Jew who is free is anathema to them, like the idea of a feral cow or sheep. And their goal now is to finish what their grandfathers started, together with their German allies.
Meanwhile BLM is a Marxist movement, but they’ve replaced class with race. Their goal is to establish a dictatorship of the <s>proletariat</s> intersectionally oppressed. They don’t care about actual black people, any more than classical Marxists cared about actual working people.August 27, 2020 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1896282
One of the differences between BLM and the old guard (e. g. Sharpton) is that they are about policy changes and not about leadership. One of the underpinnings of Marxism is, that nobody cares about anything besides for usefulness. the intention of Marx, was to make the proletariat useful on his/her own terms, and that would enable people to care for themselves. Because nobody else will.September 2, 2020 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1897918
I hope you dont rely on biased wikipedia’s for “information” re Israel and “Palestinians”.
“The gathering storm, and beyond. Israel is the aboriginal homeland of the Jewish people across space & time.” By Irwin Cotler. The Jerusalem Post. May 14, 2008September 3, 2020 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1897973
YonNews -“Joan Peters 1985 book and Mark Twain’s 1800s testimony have neen vilified by Arabists as well as by extremist anti Israel Haaretz types. But it is fairly relatively new. Since the 1990s. Or shall I say “too late”…”
Actually J. Peters’ book – “From Time Immeorial” – discusses who the Land Belongs too & it’s Not the arabs.
So maybe the Goy wrote it in 1985, but she basically Proves that the Jews have the Rights to EY!September 7, 2020 3:19 am at 3:19 am #1899048
I have read your post over multiple times. A comprehensive response eludes me. There are multiple issues here, and very few people seem to be polarized across all the topics. Different people put the emphasis on different aspects of the same issues. This could lead to more chaos them calm. Let me answer one part at a time.
You asked me about what are the goals of the rioters. I think we understand that rioting is not open dialogue. It is hard to say that if their demands are met, then the riots would cease.
Though some of the goals in these riots are self evident. In Minneapolis, there was a real sense that the DA would not press charges unless he was compelled to. The shots really seemed to be about holding police accountable.
My take has been that the majority of violence across the nation, was due to the shutdown of society. The lower classes are not going to sit in front of a television to watch an endless news cycle about the global health crisis. The fact that so many Americans had nowhere to go, and cities were empty of street traffic, opened up the possibility of a takeover of public property. I think most Americans joined in as something to do. Similar to the crowds that went to see the navy hospital boat enter New York Harbor.
Once we are dealing with a national boredom event, all dialogue and goals are largely irrelevant. Professional looters plied their craft. Anti American actors vented their feelings. Anarchists enjoyed the free ride. Overall, the context does not help political activism because they have to take ownership of all the side shows.
When the mainstream media started hyping the Aubrey case, it alarmed me because it seemed pointless. The murder happened in February. The outrage over the video was enough to bring about several arrests, and a state investigation. There was on need to hype the story, as there was no other headlines available. It just set up a super sensitive background for whatever would happen next. And then George Floyd happened.
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