Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Bnei Torah who ate goyishe food?
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August 24, 2025 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #2441029Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
No, this is not some loshon horo if you expected that.
Avoda Zara 55-57 has a couple of cases when halocha is more lenient for Bnei Torah but stricter for others in order to influence behaviors.
That is, a Ben Torah can eat turmus cooked by goyim while R Yochanan osers it for a town of amei haaretz who do other weird stuff, like marry their daughters to incomplete gerim. In the other case, Rava tries to justify his leniency in Mehuzah (where rich merchants lived) – and gets a response that they are not – comparing with yeshivish Nehardeah …So, a couple of things that strike me:
1) in our times, those who consider themselves “bnei Torah” try to out-do each other in chumros. Eating turmus without a heksher? please2) the term itself seems to mean simply people who know and follow halochos well. No implication that they exclusively sit in yeshiva.
August 26, 2025 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #2441979@fakenewsParticipantA few terms that often overlap but aren’t necessarily the same thing:
Yeshivish
Ben Torah
Yorei Shomayim
So when it says “hamachmir tavo alav bracha” or yerei shamayim yachmiru” a Yeshivish Ben Torah who is a Yorei Shomayim might try to be machmir.
Don’t try to out-do someone else’s Chumros, just try to do better than you did yesterday.
August 28, 2025 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2442766mobicoParticipantThis Sugya deals with Bishul Akum, which is a Chumra d’Rabanan to begin with. The Turmus in question were not included in the Gezeira (as you are no doubt aware, seeing as you have seen the Sugya). So they are not “Goyishe food”. The point that you are talking about is that those who are not Bnei Torah – meaning that they do not care enough to delve into the finer aspects of the Halachah – are likely to make broad general assumptions. If they hear that one thing is Mutar, they are likely to permit other things that are actually Assur. Therefore a Rav may not permit the Turmus – despite the fect that they are not even Asur mid’Rabanan – to Amei Ha’aretz, lest they then expand the Heter to include things that are actually Asur.
Rav Moshe Shternbuch Shlit”a recalls how in his youth the English city of Liverpool had a thriving religious community, but there was a big talmid chochom there who, noticing the difficult financial situation of the population, declared that he had found a way to keep stores open on Shabbos through a sale to a non-Jew. He publicized the wording of a deed of sale and partnership with a non-Jew, and people started opening their stores on Shabbos on the basis of that rov’s ruling. Unfortunately, within a short period, people started cooking and writing on Shabbos too, and stopped keeping Shabbos altogether. Once the fence of Shabbos observance had been breached, people no longer distinguished between different cases, and breached Shabbos completely, and they and their descendants threw off the yoke of observance completely. A flourishing Jewish community was destroyed because of that initial breach.August 28, 2025 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2442383Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantfakenews, as I mention, it appears from the Gemora that ben Torah can be more meikel in some cases, but there are gexerot applied to ignorami to make sure they do not get confused with what is correct halakha.
August 28, 2025 11:51 am at 11:51 am #2442391Sam KleinParticipantA fellow jew can be a frum yid but if he sins (cause he can’t hold himself in which means it’s considered on purpose) then he’s not considered a YOREI SHOMAYIM ( a person who fears Hashem) or as an example: he would hold himself back from eating that geshmacke but treife food and only eat kosher.
You could be learning full time in Kollel but if you come home from Kollel and your inside Neshama is still watching TV and the daily sports game then don’t fool yourself and consider yourself a BEN TORAH. Although you’re spending your entire day learning in Kollel, that’s all your outside guf body but what really makes a person who he is is his inside Neshama soul.
You could dress YESHIVISH or even chasidish but if your inside is a life of sports and TV then it’s all fake and also very bad for your children’s chinuch when they see and know that their YESHIVISH or chasidish parents spend their time on vacation and going out to restaurants etc. .. …..August 29, 2025 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #2443171Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantSam,
my (gemorahs) example was not “treif” – but extra chumros that gemorah prescribes for less-observant people, but does not require from those who know how to follow actual halocho.It is also not true that someone who sins is not considered Y. Sh. There are numerous gemoras about talmidei chachomim who sinned and their characteristic is – immediate teshuva. That is, if you see a T Ch sinning at night, you don’t need to tell him him next mornign because he surely did teshuvah.
Even lesser people are presumed to have certain mailos. for example, Avodah Zorah 70s talk about Jewish men who are drinking wine with a non-Jewish zonah – their wine is kosher because we presume they would not let her touch the wine.
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