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A friend of mine just got a no from a girl because he used to smoke. It was the third date everything was really going well until they passed a smoker and started discussing the subject. The mother said they are looking for a top boy (which he is) and not someone who used to smoke. Now as an ex-smoker myself I understand first hand how unhealthy this is and why someone wouldn’t want a spouse who smokes, but can you really say that cigarettes effect whether or not you are a “top guy”? What does one have to do with the other?
Bochur 2.0: WARNING… This is going to come across as harsh or just blunt.
Here’s the situation from my perspective:
Being a smoker or ex-smoker can be a deal breaker for some girls.
In these situations, it doesn’t matter to the girl if he’s a top boy because he’s out of the picture if he smokes or used to smoke.
(And I am guessing that he is in his 20’s and may not have a decade or so of smoke-free sobriety so even if he stopped a couple years ago, that might not be enough… for all they know, he could have just done it for shidduchim. Some guys start smoking again after marriage. Etc.)
Gotcha
Does he take smoke breaks? Does smoking count as bittul Torah?
If he is a top boy… and smokes, then is he a master over his inclinations in ultimate service of Hashem or is he a slave to his inclinations despite Hashem or something else… ?
Btw… at least his mother considers him frum.
Then there are those who suspect otherwise… see:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/frum-boys-who-smoke#post-618427
How would the girl find out he used to smoke years ago?
depending how many years he smoked before stopping to smoke, it takes time to rejuvenate until it feels like he never smoked & his body is fully healthy like he never smoked at all
That’s the point. It’s an addiction.
About the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, of righteous memory…
He said that the opinion of the Torah in general is that the person should be the master over his or her self, and enslavement of any sort is wrong.
Can a person still be the master over himself when involved with drugs and other addictive substances? (Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz)
Bachur, although many posters are sincere you need to take that particular thread with a grain of salt. Or a tylenol.
Mod-29: 🙂
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Btw… It’s not necessarily fair I know. I know a really really really super amazing father person human husband worker who smokes and has smoked for years.
That’s just one person (of millions and millions).
There are more people who smoke and your friend may be a truly top bochur.
It’s complicated and in the grey.
Not at all.
FYI Bochur 2.0, I’m also a millennial.
You’re going from not being a top bochur, so maybe second place, to now saying that you’re being treated like an outcast.
Dunno what to tell you… hearing you though.
I’m a BT and dated someone who smoked cigarettes and did a plethora of other things, dropped out of yeshiva and then some, and then returned. Obviously I’m not one of those top girls and don’t come from one of those families.
And this person’s mother had a ton to say about me and why I’m not good enough. It hurts. I get it. She didn’t know me. She Googled her worst nightmares. But at the end of the day, someone’s mom is going to be someone else’s mother-in-law.
If this mother wants the top bochur and is turning away your friend, is her relationship with her future son-in-law conditional on whatever impression she has of him?
We marry a person but their family affects us.
Maybe reframe the way that you see this. What’s good about the situation for you and your friend? There must be a lesson in here. Maybe a redirection?
Bochur, no offense but I would never date a guy who smoked.
B2.0, I agree what you that being an ex-smoker does not turn a boy into someone who is “not good” or a top bochur, but I think it should be taken as being a top bochur*, with the * there to let people know that there is something to consider before looking too deeply into the situation, since like you said, it can be a dealbreaker for many, then they should hear this before spending time and energy investigating the boy if this issue will break the deal for them. I know that for my daughter in her first shidduch, I forgot to ask about this issue. We had already been investigating for a few days and she reminded me to find this out. I immediately called the shadchan and fortunately the boy was not a smoker (pretty miraculous considering what yeshiva he was learning in and the high percentage of smokers they had), but anyway, I said that I would have to make sure to ask this question one of the first things with the next shidduch (fortunately she married the boy and there was no next shidduch for her).
Just as a last note, about the smoking=OTD, don’t equate the rabbonim and gedolim you know with a bochur your age. In the last several years, the rabbonim have come out very strongly about a bochur not starting to smoke. Now that we know how unhealthy it is to smoke, the best thing is not to start and then you won’t know the nisayon of trying to quit. They have not come out with a psak that it is ossur to smoke because they realize that the tzibbur would not be able to stand to such a psak and then people would be oiver on their psak but have a tremendously hard time stopping.
Bochur 2.0
I don’t know where in the world you or your refused friend are.
Here in the USA, the Surgeon General released findings on the dangers of smoking more than 50 years ago.
I would not our daughter(s) marry a smoker or former smoker. Who knows what health damage lurks in his body that will surface later.
The fact that the former smoker quit is good, that fact that he ever smoked, with or without parental permission is bad.
Furthermore, in the era of $8-10 per pack of cigarettes (they were 40 cents when I was a teenager), a bochur who wasted real money on cigarettes is not someone I’d trust to handle family finances that could affect my child and grandchildren. The smoking shows an inherent weakness.
This is not the same as those mentioning gedolim, rebbeim who are in their 60s and older that smoke. They got hooked when smoking was acceptable, cheap and all the medical dangers unknown.
you’ll see that fore sure in “in town” places it does
What shaichos “in town” and Judaism?
“Top bochur” is a subjective term, not an objective term. To some it means the best in hasmadah, to others its the best middos. While I personally do not smoke, IMHO, the status as top bochur is not diminished if that bochur smoked at one time but quit.
CTlawyer -“I would not our daughter(s) marry a smoker or former smoker. Who knows what health damage lurks in his body that will surface later.
The fact that the former smoker quit is good, that fact that he ever smoked, with or without parental permission is bad”
I agree. But the main thing to look for in marriage is Middos.
Since people lie all the time, you need Seeatoh D’shmayoh!
Tefilah helps.
Health……….
No one said smoking or not smoking is the main thing to look for in a marriage. It simply is an elimination factor.
Most top guys used to smoke. I’d basically say that sadly, in the yeshivish yeshivos, if a guy did not used to smoke that is a red flag.
Of course, if you want a husband with a decent chance of living past 60, skip the top guy and get a nonsmoker.
This is not the same as those mentioning gedolim, rebbeim who are in their 60s and older that smoke. They got hooked when smoking was acceptable, cheap and all the medical dangers unknown.
Also, once you’re over a certain age, you may as well because lung disease takes a while to develop.
If someone smoked for a year or two and then quit I wouldn’t worry so much about the long term health repercussions (though I’m sure they are real). What I would worry about is the possibility that they will smoke again.
If you marry someone who has never smoked, what is the chance they will start smoking later, after getting married? Very unlikely, probably 1% or less.
If you marry someone who used to smoke but quit years ago, what is the likelihood they will start smoking again later after getting married (perhaps when they start getting stressed out with their job or growing family)? Much, much more than 1% — a significant chance.
If you marry someone who used to smoke but quit relatively recently, what is the likelihood that they will relapse and start smoking again? Very high!
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