March 2, 2017 4:10 am at 4:10 am #619377
A friend of mine just got a no from a girl because he used to smoke. It was the third date everything was really going well until they passed a smoker and started discussing the subject. The mother said they are looking for a top boy (which he is) and not someone who used to smoke. Now as an ex-smoker myself I understand first hand how unhealthy this is and why someone wouldn’t want a spouse who smokes, but can you really say that cigarettes effect whether or not you are a “top guy”? What does one have to do with the other?March 2, 2017 4:50 am at 4:50 am #1220344
Bochur 2.0: WARNING… This is going to come across as harsh or just blunt.
Here’s the situation from my perspective:
Being a smoker or ex-smoker can be a deal breaker for some girls.
In these situations, it doesn’t matter to the girl if he’s a top boy because he’s out of the picture if he smokes or used to smoke.
(And I am guessing that he is in his 20’s and may not have a decade or so of smoke-free sobriety so even if he stopped a couple years ago, that might not be enough… for all they know, he could have just done it for shidduchim. Some guys start smoking again after marriage. Etc.)March 2, 2017 5:10 am at 5:10 am #1220345
Lightbrite I appreciate your concern for my feeling but I can take a puch or two.
I am very well aware that it is a deal breaker, both current and ex-smokers and respect the fact and might even agree that there is a chance of relapse,
However if you read my post I am asking from the fact that mother considered him not a top bochur because he used to smoke, not that she doesn’t care how good he is because smoking is an automatic no, but that he IS NOT GOOD,
Comprende?March 2, 2017 5:24 am at 5:24 am #1220346
Does he take smoke breaks? Does smoking count as bittul Torah?
If he is a top boy… and smokes, then is he a master over his inclinations in ultimate service of Hashem or is he a slave to his inclinations despite Hashem or something else… ?March 2, 2017 5:29 am at 5:29 am #1220347
Btw… at least his mother considers him frum.
Then there are those who suspect otherwise… see:March 2, 2017 5:32 am at 5:32 am #1220348JosephParticipant
How would the girl find out he used to smoke years ago?March 2, 2017 5:36 am at 5:36 am #1220349yungermanSParticipant
depending how many years he smoked before stopping to smoke, it takes time to rejuvenate until it feels like he never smoked & his body is fully healthy like he never smoked at allMarch 2, 2017 5:53 am at 5:53 am #1220350
lb nicotine is a drug addiction and many ppl who are in control including top business men and roshie yeshiva still have trouble kicking it,
Joseph as I mentioned it came up in conversation as they walked by a smokerMarch 2, 2017 5:59 am at 5:59 am #1220351March 2, 2017 5:59 am at 5:59 am #1220352
That’s the point. It’s an addiction.
About the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, of righteous memory…
He said that the opinion of the Torah in general is that the person should be the master over his or her self, and enslavement of any sort is wrong.
Can a person still be the master over himself when involved with drugs and other addictive substances? (Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz)March 2, 2017 6:00 am at 6:00 am #1220353
Bachur, although many posters are sincere you need to take that particular thread with a grain of salt. Or a tylenol.March 2, 2017 6:07 am at 6:07 am #1220354
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?March 2, 2017 6:10 am at 6:10 am #1220355
Btw… It’s not necessarily fair I know. I know a really really really super amazing father person human husband worker who smokes and has smoked for years.
That’s just one person (of millions and millions).
There are more people who smoke and your friend may be a truly top bochur.
It’s complicated and in the grey.March 2, 2017 6:22 am at 6:22 am #1220356
I understand but look at it from my perspective
We live in a day and age when teens are bombarded with confusion spanning from parents who may be caring but aren’t as open minded as their children to rebbaim who may not understand to the unnatural pulls of the outside world, us as millennials have fought and gnawed our way through these confusing years and yes you probably wont agree but we are not understood by the older generation (I think any honest mechanech will agree) and we literally cant catch a break. I am not some kid who hates authority im really not, but sometimes I do wish people will open their minds and think maybe we aren’t just immature rebels, maybe we do want to do good, and maybe just maybe it is hard and we are not just making excuses, yes we smoked cigarettes, yes we left yeshiva, does that make us outcasts?March 2, 2017 6:30 am at 6:30 am #1220357
Not at all.March 2, 2017 6:32 am at 6:32 am #1220358
FYI Bochur 2.0, I’m also a millennial.March 2, 2017 6:40 am at 6:40 am #1220359
You’re going from not being a top bochur, so maybe second place, to now saying that you’re being treated like an outcast.
Dunno what to tell you… hearing you though.
I’m a BT and dated someone who smoked cigarettes and did a plethora of other things, dropped out of yeshiva and then some, and then returned. Obviously I’m not one of those top girls and don’t come from one of those families.
And this person’s mother had a ton to say about me and why I’m not good enough. It hurts. I get it. She didn’t know me. She Googled her worst nightmares. But at the end of the day, someone’s mom is going to be someone else’s mother-in-law.
If this mother wants the top bochur and is turning away your friend, is her relationship with her future son-in-law conditional on whatever impression she has of him?
We marry a person but their family affects us.
Maybe reframe the way that you see this. What’s good about the situation for you and your friend? There must be a lesson in here. Maybe a redirection?March 2, 2017 6:57 am at 6:57 am #1220360
See mod 29 that’s very nice and all but if you look into it and observe you’ll see that fore sure in “in town” places it does, it means we are a lower class. I’m not talking about angry kids who blame everything on Judaism and their rebbaim that’s a different discussion I’m talking about good kids who are lost.March 2, 2017 8:26 am at 8:26 am #1220361rebshidduchParticipant
Bochur, no offense but I would never date a guy who smoked.March 2, 2017 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1220362NechomahParticipant
B2.0, I agree what you that being an ex-smoker does not turn a boy into someone who is “not good” or a top bochur, but I think it should be taken as being a top bochur*, with the * there to let people know that there is something to consider before looking too deeply into the situation, since like you said, it can be a dealbreaker for many, then they should hear this before spending time and energy investigating the boy if this issue will break the deal for them. I know that for my daughter in her first shidduch, I forgot to ask about this issue. We had already been investigating for a few days and she reminded me to find this out. I immediately called the shadchan and fortunately the boy was not a smoker (pretty miraculous considering what yeshiva he was learning in and the high percentage of smokers they had), but anyway, I said that I would have to make sure to ask this question one of the first things with the next shidduch (fortunately she married the boy and there was no next shidduch for her).March 2, 2017 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1220363NechomahParticipant
Just as a last note, about the smoking=OTD, don’t equate the rabbonim and gedolim you know with a bochur your age. In the last several years, the rabbonim have come out very strongly about a bochur not starting to smoke. Now that we know how unhealthy it is to smoke, the best thing is not to start and then you won’t know the nisayon of trying to quit. They have not come out with a psak that it is ossur to smoke because they realize that the tzibbur would not be able to stand to such a psak and then people would be oiver on their psak but have a tremendously hard time stopping.March 2, 2017 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #1220364CTLAWYERParticipant
I don’t know where in the world you or your refused friend are.
Here in the USA, the Surgeon General released findings on the dangers of smoking more than 50 years ago.
I would not our daughter(s) marry a smoker or former smoker. Who knows what health damage lurks in his body that will surface later.
The fact that the former smoker quit is good, that fact that he ever smoked, with or without parental permission is bad.
Furthermore, in the era of $8-10 per pack of cigarettes (they were 40 cents when I was a teenager), a bochur who wasted real money on cigarettes is not someone I’d trust to handle family finances that could affect my child and grandchildren. The smoking shows an inherent weakness.
This is not the same as those mentioning gedolim, rebbeim who are in their 60s and older that smoke. They got hooked when smoking was acceptable, cheap and all the medical dangers unknown.March 2, 2017 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1220365
you’ll see that fore sure in “in town” places it does
What shaichos “in town” and Judaism?March 2, 2017 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1220366iacisrmmaParticipant
“Top bochur” is a subjective term, not an objective term. To some it means the best in hasmadah, to others its the best middos. While I personally do not smoke, IMHO, the status as top bochur is not diminished if that bochur smoked at one time but quit.March 2, 2017 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1220367HealthParticipant
CTlawyer -“I would not our daughter(s) marry a smoker or former smoker. Who knows what health damage lurks in his body that will surface later.
The fact that the former smoker quit is good, that fact that he ever smoked, with or without parental permission is bad”
I agree. But the main thing to look for in marriage is Middos.
Since people lie all the time, you need Seeatoh D’shmayoh!
Tefilah helps.March 2, 2017 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1220368CTLAWYERParticipant
No one said smoking or not smoking is the main thing to look for in a marriage. It simply is an elimination factor.March 2, 2017 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1220369popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Most top guys used to smoke. I’d basically say that sadly, in the yeshivish yeshivos, if a guy did not used to smoke that is a red flag.
Of course, if you want a husband with a decent chance of living past 60, skip the top guy and get a nonsmoker.March 2, 2017 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1220370popa_bar_abbaParticipant
This is not the same as those mentioning gedolim, rebbeim who are in their 60s and older that smoke. They got hooked when smoking was acceptable, cheap and all the medical dangers unknown.
Also, once you’re over a certain age, you may as well because lung disease takes a while to develop.March 2, 2017 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #1220371yytzParticipant
If someone smoked for a year or two and then quit I wouldn’t worry so much about the long term health repercussions (though I’m sure they are real). What I would worry about is the possibility that they will smoke again.
If you marry someone who has never smoked, what is the chance they will start smoking later, after getting married? Very unlikely, probably 1% or less.
If you marry someone who used to smoke but quit years ago, what is the likelihood they will start smoking again later after getting married (perhaps when they start getting stressed out with their job or growing family)? Much, much more than 1% — a significant chance.
If you marry someone who used to smoke but quit relatively recently, what is the likelihood that they will relapse and start smoking again? Very high!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.