October 29, 2015 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #616582The FrumguyParticipant
I was in a Nusach Ashkenaz shul in Flatbush for Ma’ariv a while back and I saw/heard something which I had never experienced.
After the final kaddish following Aleinu, a mispalel (probably a latecomer) proclaimed “Borchu Es Hashem Hamevorach”, I guess because he missed the opening Borchu. Immediately after, the shamash or gabbai screamed out loudly “NOBODY answer him – that is not the minhag hamakom of our shul!!” quite forcefully, to say the least.
Curious to hear whether you’ve ever seen such a spectacle. Also, what is your opinion of what I experienced. Was he mevayesh a fellow yid b’rabim?October 30, 2015 7:05 am at 7:05 am #1116195old manParticipant
This minhag is common to Sefardim and Ashkenazim in EY. In America, as is well known, Ashkenazim do not have this minhag. While the gabbai may have overreacted, the guest yachid hamispallel has no right to do any public action in shul without the gabbai’s express permission. I would have spoken to the fellow after shul and explained this to him, but I still support the gabbai here. The guilty party here is the mispallel and not the gabbai.
One more note: The authentic Askenazi minhag is not to say barchu. In EY, the Ashkenazim picked it up from the Sefardim.October 30, 2015 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1116196ubiquitinParticipant
“Was he mevayesh a fellow yid b’rabim?”
But hey maybe THAT is the shul’s minhagOctober 30, 2015 1:26 pm at 1:26 pm #1116197KolMevaserMember
In Baltimore Rabbi Heinemann has a sign up against this Borchu practice at the Agudah. A smart person would think to ask before proclaiming the Borchu.October 30, 2015 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1116198the plumberMember
This is all fine and dandy, but limaysa he was mevayesh a guy berabim.
Is it so terrible to do it once.October 30, 2015 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1116199the plumberMember
In myshul they had a similar maysa.
A guy was saying kaddish and someone yelled ” don’t answer, it’s not our minhag”October 30, 2015 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1116200Sam2Participant
I’ve always wondered about this. I have always thought that there should be a Chiluk between a latecomer saying Borchu (in essense, being Pores Al Shma according to some Shittos) and randomly saying Borchu at the end of Davening whether or not there were any latecomers, which is the Minhag in EY.
old man: I was told it’s not borrowed from the Sephardim. It’s the Shittah of the Gra. Many Minhagim in E”Y are against what was standardly practiced in Ashkenaz because the Talmidim of the Gra were the first to come there.October 30, 2015 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1116201bigkhunaParticipant
If this is Shittah Gra why don’t they say it in Chaim Berlin? We have a procedure for a late comers to say Barchu and that is to clop first. I think this tells they olam something unusual is about to happen. The Sefardi barchu as made as if it is part of davening.
The clop gives me a heads up a barchu is coming. When these extra barchus are said I an not prepared for them and will not answer since I can’t respond immediately.
This minhag should not have creeped into Ascanaz minyonim in Erez Yisroel since it isn’t our minhag. But, since it is there I assume I has to be answered to. There are those who are trying to foist the Sefardi Minhag on Askanaz shuls. They have total disregard for out minhagim. Those who say it have no respect for halacha since the halacha says minhag is in a makom. I don’t think these people can be trusted for other halacha issues if they can violate this.
We do have a minhag for a late comer to say barchu and this young man had a right to that minhag. If that was the case he should have told the gabbai when he finished davening.
There is another issue the sefardim are insisting on in our shuls. When they say kadish yasim they say their version. Which is very wrong. Again they do not respect minhag hamokom.October 30, 2015 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #1116202The FrumguyParticipant
I’m not so sure that Yeshiva Chaim Berlin is 100% pure Minhagei H’Gra.
What should a Gabbai do when someone goes against the minhag hamakom?October 30, 2015 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1116203ubiquitinParticipant
1) that it no way changes the fact that he was “mevayesh a fellow yid b’rabim” As oldman says the gabai may have been right but that still sounds pretty embarassing
2) You really cant hink of another way other than the one you describe?October 30, 2015 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1116204☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
What should a Gabbai do when someone goes against the minhag hamakom?
Shoot him.November 1, 2015 12:02 am at 12:02 am #1116205👑RebYidd23Participant
Shooting him is a bit drastic. Throw him in the dungeon.November 1, 2015 4:04 am at 4:04 am #1116206147Participant
Came late:- Tough luck mate! .. Repeating Borchu after Maariv is an absolute No No, and absolutely off limits.
If this incident had occurred at Breuer’s, this culprit would encountered even more than just 1 screaming Gabbai.November 1, 2015 4:22 am at 4:22 am #1116207JosephParticipant
The authentic Askenazi minhag is not to say barchu.
Are you referring to automatically saying barchu after every maariv, even if no one missed the first barchu – or are you referring to someone saying a makeup barchu only when someone missed the first barchu?
In EY, the Ashkenazim picked it up from the Sefardim.
Which Ashkenazim? Outside of EY Ashkenazim do it differently than in EY?November 1, 2015 10:42 am at 10:42 am #1116208shmoolik 1Participant
according to the sefer “sefer eretz Yisrael” of Rav yechiel Mickael Tukachinsky- Ahkenazim perushim do not say borcho batra after kaddish batra ONLY AFTER WEEKDAY MAARIV AND DAYS THAT THE TORA IS NOT READ on days that it is read borchu was already said nor on fri night or yom tov because there are no latecomers
??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?November 1, 2015 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1116209old manParticipant
To Sam , Joseph (shtei neshimos) and others
Some clarifying points to my previous post:
1. I did not find anywhere that saying barchu at the end of ma’ariv is minhag ha’Gra.If I missed something, I’ll be happy to be corrected.
2. I am well aware of Tukochinsky’s luach. Although minhag yerushalayim, and by extension in many cases, minhag eretz yisrael is minhag haGra, this is not always the case. The luach is minhag haprushim (albeit talmidei Ha’Gra), but as expected, their minhagim were influenced here and there by the minhag hamakom, which was sefaradi before the prushim showed up.
3. The sefaradim always say borchu at the end, shacharis and arvis. It seems that this was to help out the latecomers and became a lo ploog. The prushim accepted this with the logical proviso that in cases where there are no latecomers, it should not be said. As Shmoolik correctly pointed out, this would be on Monday and Thursday morning (borchu in leining for the latecomers)and Leil Shabbat (plenty of time , even for the latecomers). Following this logic, borchu is not said arvis after Ne’ilah Yom Kippur because everyone is in shul already, and Tukochinsky specifically includes this quirk in the luach.
5. Although this is controversial, there are those who say that historically, yiru eineinu was instituted to help out the latecomers come for tefillah b”tzibur. Since the Gaon eliminated this Ashkenazic practice, it is unlikely that he was concerned with latecomers, at least according to this explanation.
Finally, in defense of gabbaim. Gabbaim contend constantly with uber chachomim who walk into a shul where they are nonpaying guests, yet feel that their personal spiritual needs supersede the tzibbur and minhag hamakom. They need to be taught. It’s usually best to teach privately and b’nachat, but in terms of getting the message across, sometimes the harsh method brings results, and the private-talk method does not. Many of these fellows then go on to argue with the gabbai that the minhag hamakom is wrong and needs to be changed on the spot. These people do not get any sympathy from the gabbai, nor do they deserve any.November 1, 2015 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1116210☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
there are those who say that historically, yiru eineinu was instituted to help out the latecomers come for tefillah b”tzibur. Since the Gaon eliminated this Ashkenazic practice, it is unlikely that he was concerned with latecomers, at least according to this explanation.
Interesting, but not at all muchrach. There are latecomers and there are latecomers. It takes a minute of tardiness to miss Borchu, but it takes a few to say Yir’u Eineinu.
There are other possible chillukim as well.December 11, 2015 4:21 am at 4:21 am #1116211☢️ 🚭 ☣️ Rand0m3x 🧠🕴️🎲Participant
limaysa he was mevayesh a guy berabim.
Is it so terrible to do it once?
There are sources indicating that doing it once does not
cause a person to lose their cheilek in Olam Habo.December 11, 2015 7:13 am at 7:13 am #1116212Mashiach AgentMember
is embarrassing enough for the person to say borchu after maariv, telling everyone he was a latecomer. but there’s no need to make it worse, the whole thing takes 10 seconds tops & what damage is he doing to the shul? if anything he is being mikadaish Hashem by causing tons of people to praise Hashem again for what the words mean & help other late comers besides himself make up for being late.
if it would cause people to show up late every day by shmone esrei & tell them i will make it up after davening with borchu, i would understand but this is only done when the person is accidently a minute or 2 late for whatever reason (hard time finding parking or stuck at a traffic light etc….)December 11, 2015 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1116213MenoParticipant
So if he came 2 minutes late because he was busy posting in the Coffee Room, it would be different?December 11, 2015 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #1116214Mashiach AgentMember
LolDecember 11, 2015 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1116215MenoParticipant
I wasn’t actually making a joke.
If the policy of the shul is not to do it, the circumstances of each individual case shouldn’t be relevant. Even if you were saving someone’s life, if you missed borchu, you missed it.December 14, 2015 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #1116216Geordie613Participant
1. I asked the poisek Rav Eliyahu Falk in Gateshead if the barchu after maariv is permissible for a latecomer, and he had no problem with it. (obviously that’s not where it’s expressly against the minhag hamokom)
2. Dayan Dunner in London said in his shul (i was there at the time), that there is nothing wrong with it, just that the chazan (for maariv) shouldn’t say it, because then it looks like it’s the shul’s minhag.
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