Born that way?

It’s an apparent Machlokes between two Gemaros if I recall correctly, but we hold that Hakol Bidei Shamayim Chutz Miyiras Shamayim means that we have the real Bechirah Chofshis to do good or do bad.

We are all born with predispositions, some good and some bad but in the end it is really our choice whether to fight off our bad tendencies and be a good person.

Did that even make sense? Sorry, my head is all jumbled up and I cant get a sentence out straight.

cinderella –

Yes, and it is in a nutshell what the Rambam and all the ba’alei mussar say. Someone must have taught you well!

Yitay: That Gemara, as well as I believe a Mefurash Gemara about Yeish Mazal L’yisrael (end of Shabbos maybe?). Also, some of the Geonim and early Rishonim (philosophers) learn that Gemara in an interesting slant. They hold like some of the Muslim philosophers who hold that every action is predetermined. A Tzaddik is just someone who does good things with joy and bad things unwillingly. A Rasha is someone who is the opposite. It actually works much better with the words of Hakol… Chutzh Miyiras Shamayim. Still, it would seem that Klal Yisrael holds like the standard interpretation of that phrase.

The Gemara in Bava Basra says that Iyov said to Hashem, “You created Tzaddikim and you created Resha’im.” Hashem Answered him, “Barasi Yetzer Hara, Barasi Torah Tavlin.”

Yiras Shamayim is the only part that is up to you. Your actions follow, based on abilities and circumstance, both from Hashem.

However, Tosafos in Nidah 16b points to the fact that Menashe being a Rasha was foretold to Chizkiyahu, and says, among other Terutzim, that Mazal can indeed cause someone to be a Rasha, and Min Hashamayim they won’t get in the way of the Mazal.

This Tosafos is puzzling considering the Gemara in Bava Basra that I mentioned. The Tosafos Harosh says it a bit differently. He says that most people just follow their nature. In other words, like many have written here, the person might be born with an evil nature, and while it is his responsibility and ability to change, most don’t.

Also, even if a person is born as a Rasha his job would be to do Teshuva. Tosafos’ proof was from Menashe. He actually did Teshuva.

• The Maskana is that he did. But according to that Tanna you have a good point. His Teshuva isn’t considered real my many. So, it still may be that his Tachlis was to do Teshuva, but my proof goes out the window.
• The Chovos Halevavos actually mentions an approach like what you wrote earlier, that everything is predestined and as for the deserving of Schar and Onash, that we cannot understand yet.
• The Gur Arye this week by Vayisrotzatzu Habonim and earlier in Noach by Yetzer Lev Ha’adam says something interesting regarding the inborn nature and Yetzer Hara. He says that they are two separate ideas. The Yetzer Hara is the planning to do wrong while the person’s nature is his liking of any particular behavior.

i heard in R’ Hutner’s name that how could it be Eisav was a rasha from the womb? (if he was considered a yisrael mumar, that means potentially he could have been a tzaddik. yet we see that from the womb he’s struggling to get out when Rivka passes by bais avoda zara. where’s his bechira?)

he answers that Eisav was not a rasha from the womb, nobody is. in fact, Eisav wanted to go and destroy the avoda zara. that was his machlokes with yaakov, to actively destroy avoda zara or to just learn.

then he was born and the rest, as they say, is history. 🙂 heard from R’ Dovid Heber in Baltimore

I heard that Menashe’s teshuva was good enough to cover his own behavior but the influence he had on others was too much to undo.

Also dont forget that even if someone is born with a predisposition to greatness, a lot, lot more is expected from them, and they have to work just as hard as anyone else to get to where they are meant to.