bracha on a wrap?

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  • #599555
    L613
    Member

    What bracha do you make on a wrap? Wash and make hamotzi? Or a metzonos?

    #1046689
    yungerman1
    Participant

    Like everything else, its a machlokes.

    Depends on if a wrap is considered pas haba bikisnin even though it doesnt fall under any of the three definitions.

    Like everything else, you should ask your LOR, not your CR!

    #1046690
    adorable
    Participant

    if you are asking what you should do the answer would be ask your rav. i personally try to wash but if I cant wash and the choice is bread or a wrap i would take a wrap and make a mexonos because I know there are people who dont wash on it.

    #1046691
    Sam2
    Participant

    Depends on what type of wrap it is (not what’s inside, but how the wrap itself is made). If it’s very thin and crunchy then it’s probably Mezonos. Usually (at least most that I’ve seen) are Hamotzi though.

    #1046692
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I have never heard a good reason why it would not be hamotzi (assuming soft wrap, the only type I’m familiar with).

    I don’t know of anyone who says it is mezonos, but I can’t guarantee there isn’t anyone.

    Probably the same people who use the brooklyn eruv. (See, any thread can be made into a fun thread.)

    #1046693
    Toi
    Participant

    also the same crowd who will find heterim to permit the essential kol isha in IDF serices. this is getting better and better, no?

    #1046694
    ark
    Participant

    R Elyashiv said you make a mezonos if its the very thin type. There is a clip of him answering the question, when someone shows him the round standard wrap.(it might be available online).

    i also asked a rav and posek who answered the same. if it is very thin and has no air bubbles to make it look like bread (tzuras denahama)you make a mezonos. The question, though comes up, if the wrap is a bit fluffy, and on that, you would need to bring it to the rav to see. But those standard round types that are very thin – -you make a mezonos. In lakewood, at Bagel Nosh they tell everyone, based on the above, to make a mezonos.

    #1046695
    MDG
    Participant

    I would say Homotsi as it’s made with bread dough and eaten like bread (kiviat seudah), but CYLOR.

    #1046696
    bpt
    Participant

    Play it safe, and have it in mind when you say the bracha “malbish arumim” in the morning.

    Oh, not the pashmina kind of wrap? Sorry, my bad.

    #1046697
    tryinghard
    Member

    Unsure. But since wraps are being discussed…. anybody have a good recipe for a wrap. No red meat, please. Simple would be great:)

    #1046698
    yungerman1
    Participant

    pba- do you wash on a slice of pizza? Same would apply to a wrap.

    The sefer Vzos Habracha writes that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach told him the minhag haolam is mezonos.

    #1046699
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yungerman:

    I do wash on a slice of pizza, and I don’t know what that has to do with a wrap.

    I generally consider the issue of pizza to be whether cheese and sauce can make pas into pas kisnin, which the beur halacha says it cannot unless it is similar to hors d’oeuvres (meaning, made in small pieces for snacking purposes.)

    One poster here said the issue by wraps is whether there is a toar lechem. I haven’t looked at that in a while. Perhaps you could say the same thing for pizza, but that I have never heard of, and then you would not wash even on more than a slice.

    #1046700
    hello99
    Participant

    The exception would be a location where the MAJORITY of the people USUALLY eat pizza ONLY as a snack and NOT as a meal. The Poskim who differentiate between one and two slices are assuming such a practice, but I have not seen this in the USA or EY.

    #1046701
    hello99
    Participant
    #1046702
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    hello:

    Do you know what a source for a concept that a real dough which is baked in a normal manner, should need to have a toar lechem? I don’t see that in the MB.

    #1046703
    ark
    Participant

    hello99,

    please speak to your posek. to my understanding, you are incorrect. if any of them say hamotzie on the very thin wraps, please tell us who paskens that way. if not, please dont state what you think the answer might be. its possible someone does say you say hamotzie, but until you ask its best not to paskin yourself. R Elyashiv poskined mezonos, along with other Lakewood poskim.

    #1046704
    hello99
    Participant

    PBA: Aruch HaShulchan OC 168:30, Minchas Yitzchok 1:71:6

    #1046705
    shmoel
    Member

    hello: if you are yotzei b’dieved with mezonos, what about bentching? Would al hamichya be yotzei b’dieved?

    #1046706
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Aruch HaShulchan OC 168:30

    Isn’t that is a case of ?????? ???, which the shulchan aruch distinguishes that from ?????? ???? Wraps are unquestionably made with ?????? ???.

    #1046707
    hello99
    Participant

    shmoel: machlokes, but yes. every time you eat cake, crackers, pie, etc it is pas haba’ah b’kisnin which is a safek mezonos or hamotzi an we say mezonos and al ha’michya

    #1046708
    hello99
    Participant

    pba: at the end he claims that Tosafos and the Rosh would agree with Rashi, from the context this includes belila aveh

    #1046709
    Sam2
    Participant

    Hello: If something is Vadai Chayav in bentsching then you are not Yotzei B’dieved with a Me’ein Shalosh.

    #1046710
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    moderators,

    maybe you can consolidate all these bracha questions posts into one post thread of any and all imaginable bracha questions.

    #1046711
    ark
    Participant

    “Do you know what a source for a concept that a real dough which is baked in a normal manner, should need to have a toar lechem? I don’t see that in the MB”

    see orach chaim 168, MB sif kattan 38

    also see Rabbi Bodners book on brochos, vol 2, p. 484-485, note 16 and 16.2, and his note about R S.Z. Aurbach.

    almost certainly, a wrap is a mezonos.

    #1046712
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    see orach chaim 168, MB sif kattan 38

    ????? (??) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? (??) ????? ??????

    ? ? ??? ? ????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????? ? ? ? ?? ????

    ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ??????? ? ? ? ? ???? ?????

    ??? ? ? ???? ? ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ? ? ? ? ?

    ???? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ??? ??? ????? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ?

    See how it says ?????? ? ? ?? That means it is made with a liquid batter. Not a dough. So that is not a wrap.

    #1046713
    squeak
    Participant

    As far as looking at whether the majority will snack on a slice of pizza, I would say its hard to bring proof from what we do ourselves. I know that I would find pizza good for snacking if not for the fact that I need to wash and bentch. A posteriori, it is suitable only at mealtimes.

    Can we judge based on what non jews do? If so, I still don’t know if by majority it is a snack, but I know that I frequently see people eating pizza on the go. It could very well be true that one slice is considered a snack to most people in the US.

    #1046714
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    That is a dang good point squeak. I never thought of that.

    I think goyim would eat pizza as a snack.

    I don’t know what ratio of snack we would need to satisfy that beur halacha though. (because I’m pretty sure they eat it more often than not as a meal.)

    #1046715
    shmoel
    Member

    I notice that in pizza stores very few people wash for the pizza.

    #1046716
    hello99
    Participant
    #1046717
    hello99
    Participant

    copied:

    I have frequently been asked the appropriate Bracha to be recited before eating a wrap. For the uninitiated, a wrap is a thin piece of dough wrapped around a filler; which may be tuna, cheese, salad or anything else conceivable.

    As background, it must be clarified that there are three basic categories of grain based foods.

    1) Bread. Bread products are designed to be eaten as a staple food and are always HaMotzi.

    2) The other extreme are products that are never HaMotzi, always Mezonos. This includes noodles, oatmeal and other items that have no similarity to bread.

    At first glance, a wrap would seem to be very similar to a Lafa/Eish Tanur, which is essentially a wide, pocket-less pita. Both are thin doughs that are designed to be filled for a sandwich-like meal. This would unquestionably render it a bread product, which is certainly HaMotzi. This is the position of HaRav Belsky Shlita.

    Additionally, those who allow making Mezonos on a wrap generally take into account these factors and rule it a category 3 rather than a 2. So if you are eating a wrap for lunch, it is likely that you would have to say HaMotzi on it, even if it is not a pure bread. Since it is eaten as a meal, and together with the side dishes is a significant quantity, it is raised to the status of a HaMotzi product.

    In conclusion, while it would be ideal to make HaMotzi on a piece of regular bread first, in my opinion a wrap always requires a Bracha of HaMotzi and one should not say Mezonos on it. However, if one did say Mezonos, the Poskim conclude that he has fulfilled his obligation ex post facto, even if it was the incorrect Bracha.

    #1046718
    MeemaYehudis
    Member

    A number of years ago, when wraps started being served in kosher restaurants in New York, I was in a small Milchig restaurant in Manhattan where wraps were on the menu, & a sign on the wall behind the cashier said that the bracha on wraps is Hamotzi. Shortly thereafter, I was in a fleishig restaurant which had a sign saying that the bracha on wraps is mezonos. I called the rav hamachshir of the second place to ask him what the story was. He told me that in his opinion the bracha should be hamotzi, but he had spoken to a rav whom he considered greater than he was, who maintained that the bracha should be mezonos. The rav to whom I spoke also said that in his opinion, if one eats 1 slice of pizza with french fries, one should say hamotzi. Very confusing, but our policy is to always wash & say hamotzi on these items, (as well as “mezonos rolls”) as we only eat them when being kovea s’uda.

    #1046719

    There are wraps that are like flat thin lafas, and there are really thin flour tortillas. I remember being told by my LOR that the flour tortillas are mezonos but now I cant remember why. It was something about the baking process. Is it possible that they are fried or halachically cooked as opposed to baked?

    #1046720
    hello99
    Participant

    Syag: I’m not aware of such a process, but it’s possible

    #1046721

    I thought that if you are being koveah seudah on it, its hamotzi either way. Am I wrong?

    #1046722
    hello99
    Participant

    If it was a liquid batter and lacking “To’ar Lechem” it would be eqivalent to noodles that are never Hamotzi even with a full meal.

    #1046723

    Hello99, popa, etc.,

    Why is it a shailah if there’s an issue of ??? ??? on a ????? ???? We say ?????? on matzah brie and kneidlach, although it was a ????? ???. Having been baked without a ??? ??? could only be worse.

    Also, the ??”? states that ?????”? and ??????”? have ??? ???; they are ?????? ???. Obviously, some ????? ??? items don’t have ??? ???, or else he should not have had to specify.

    #1046724
    yeshivaguy45
    Participant

    DY, If you google bracha on wraps, you’ll get a blog from Kollel Sharei Horaah which has the article that hello99 copied from. In the comments there, Rabbi Peretz Moncharsh adresses this point.

    #1046725
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Yo I’m made from flour and water you see

    that makes me part of the bread family

    it don’t matter that I do not rise

    I’m flat for a reason, keep your eye on the prize

    so stop wondering what bracha to make

    wash on me I’m not a piece of cake.

    Word.

    #1046726

    Yeshivaguy45, he says the first to apply the issue of toar lechem to blilah avah was the Aruch Hashulchan. I am contending that this is not the case.

    #1046727
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    In the Gemara, Turisa Denahama is used with regards to losing the status of bread when you cook actual bread. Here, the question is if it is bread in its own right.

    #1046728

    HaLeiVi, I am addressing one specific point:

    A problem with this viewpoint is that there are minimal sources for downgrading a pastry manufactured from a viscous dough based on its appearance.

    I don’t know why one would be mechalek between something which once had the appearance of bread, and something which never did, and since we all know the sources for something losing its toar lechem, there’s no good reason to think that there can’t be something, even blilah avah, which never had it.

    Of course, one could argue that wraps do have it, and I don’t really have a strong opinion on that.

    That which he writes, “While the precise definition of this term is very elusive, it seems that it is a prerequisite to be considered a bread product”, as well as, “to say that a wrap has crossed the invisible line that divides them is a judgment call”, are, IMO, on the mark.

    #1046729
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Downgrading the status is when you clearly are not using it as bread and the question is if it keeps the status of bread once it had it. But the discussion of the function of a particular item should not include the Tzura, rather the function.

    #1046730

    Correct. If it does not have the tzurah of bread, it would be a mezonos even if you are kovea seudah in it.

    #1046731
    kellerj
    Member

    Why don’t we say safek brachos l’hakel, and say mezonos/al hamichya? Does al hamichya work m’doraisa for bentching? I assume one would at least wash without a bracho?

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