Bracha Shailah – and yes, I am asking my Rov

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  • #615564

    oomis
    Participant

    I wonder if anyone happens to know the answer to this question. I am asking my rov anyway, but I was curious. If someone makes challah with gluten-free oat flour, the rbacha made on it is Hamotzi. But what if the person making the challah puts apple sauce (not juice) in the dough? Does that make it like cake/Mezonos, or can she still say Hamotzi? Any thoughts from the rabbonim out there?

    #1073811

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    With or without water?

    #1073812

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I don’t know the answer to your question, but I’d be interested in hearing the answer you do get from your rav.

    The Wolf

    #1073813

    MDG
    Participant

    “With or without water?”

    Other relevant questions are:

    • Is there more water than apple sauce and oil?
    • How are you going to use it?
    • Is the taste of the apple sauce or juice noticeable? This Q is more applicable for Sepharadim.

    #1073814

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Make sure you take along a piece for your Rav to taste.

    #1073815

    oomis
    Participant

    She used 2 cups of water, half cup oil, under a cup of apple sauce. NO juice, but a spoonful of cider vinegar was added. It is problematic to give a taste to the Rov, because what bracha does HE make? This is for someone who must be gluten free, so she cannot make hazmotzi on anything else, unfortunately.

    #1073816

    oomis
    Participant

    It was meant for lechem mishneh for her for shabbos. If she can’t wash for it, she won’t be able to wash for hamotzi.

    #1073817

    oomis
    Participant

    My rov said she has to wash, make Hamotzi and bensch.

    #1073818

    147
    Participant

    My rov said she has to wash, make Hamotzi and bensch. Did your Rov also tell you that she could wash, make Hamotzi & bensch over it for her Seudas Yom ha’Atzmaut?

    #1073819

    Sam2
    Participant

    The OP made an assumption. Are we sure that assumption is correct?

    #1073820

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, Sam, we follow our mesorah, despite what current agricultural science may say.

    #1073821

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    oomis – I also can no longer eat gluten (or potatoes) and am constantly looking for options. This was my first gluten free Pesach and I thought of you often!

    #1073822

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Who’s disagreeing? We have no Mesorah on gluten-free oats.

    #1073823

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I was under the impression that gluten free oats were the same min as regular oats.

    #1073824

    cherrybim
    Participant

    I think that if you are koveia seudah on the rolls, you have to wash/hamotzi/bench regardless.

    #1073825

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: What would give you that impression? If gluten is what defines Chimutz, it makes tremendous sense for anything totally gluten-free to necessarily be a different Min.

    #1073826

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The only Pikpuk I’ve heard of of with regards to Matza. Since Chametz is about the gluten, the theory goes, without it you don’t have Matza.

    #1073827

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I have heard that people think oats should be like rice, and that the fifth min is a variety of barley. One of the arguments is that the gluten in oats is just cross contamination from other species.

    I haven’t really looked into it much, since I’ve heard b’shem gedolei haposkim that our mesorah is that oats are from the chameshes minim, and I suppose I accept the argument that gluten free oats are just oats without gluten.

    #1073828

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    There seem to be a lot of “glutten-free” people nowadays. I don’t remember having so many people with this issue years ago. Is it a new thing? If so, what caused it? Vaccines?

    #1073829

    Avram in MD
    Participant

    YW Moderator-42,

    I don’t remember having so many people with this issue years ago. Is it a new thing? If so, what caused it? Vaccines?

    I don’t think there is any one known answer, but here are some of the thoughts that I have had.

    1. Better diagnosis of celiac as a cause for sickness

    2. Due to increased screenings, celiac diagnoses being made even when symptoms are not present

    3. Not related to celiac, in the past generation, added gluten has been used as a food additive (it makes breads rise better and yields a nice, chewy texture), so perhaps the increased amounts are resulting in increased sensitivity.

    4. Perhaps some people are more sensitive to newer bred varieties of wheat.

    5. Increasing self-diagnosing/misdiagnosing of gastro ailments as wheat sensitivity.

    #1073830

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    although I don’t quite buy in to all the hype about genetically engineered blah blah blah I am seeing more legitamate food sensitivities which can very well be due to all our food being so “played with”. Between the processing and radiation and whatever, who knows what the bottom line is. I don’t have celiac but if I eat gluten my head will hurt terribly and it literally makes me unable to function. I fall asleep and feel horrible even when I wake. Saying away from gluten has made me even more sensitive to it. And after a year without it I am noticing it starting to happen from eating other foods. It’s a huge “krich”, as my kids would say.

    In answer to 42’s query, it may be vaccines, but I think it may actually come from homework and I propose we put an end to it completely to save the next generation.

    #1073831

    oomis
    Participant

    Gluten is found in all but one of the five grains that can become chometz. Oats can ALSO become chometz, but unless there is cross contamination with another gluten grain during the growing our harvest, it intrinsically seems to be gluten free, making it a good choice for those who cannot tolerate gluten.

    The rov paskened she had to wash for these rolls, for some of the reasons mentioned, i.e. koveya seuda etc. The gluten does not cause the chometz, or matzah would be chometzdig even before 18 minutes. The flour itself is the problem for people with gluten isues, because it contains glutens. Oats seem to generally not be an issue, and they could turn to chometz afterward, just like any of the five grains, but still be safe for people with celiac.

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