Breakfast Faux Pas ?

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  • #1240148

    TheGoq
    Participant

    If you were making yourself a bagel and lox at home would you toast the bagel? or is that a breakfast faux pas like the dreaded (red condiment) on eggs?

    #1240158

    Meno
    Participant

    Absolutely toast the bagel.

    Is this some kind of joke?

    #1240201

    Joseph
    Participant

    I can’t believe the OP made it past moderation and wasn’t deleted.

    Untoasted bagel!?

    #1240204

    TheGoq
    Participant

    No joke when at a bris there is no opportunity to toast but lately when making my own i toast i like it texturalally

    #1240400

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Toasting a fresh bagel is foolishness.

    Though if bagel is day or so old, it may require toasting

    #1240411

    Joseph
    Participant

    The frummest yidden always toast.

    I guess it all depends how frum you are.

    #1240504

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It is assur D’Aroysa to toast a Bagel

    #1240517

    Joseph
    Participant

    … on Shabbos.

    #1240696

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ZD is right
    Toasting a fresh bagel defeats the purpose! it is baal tashchis
    If your going to toast get a bagguette or bialy or some other garbage. The beauty of a bagel is the texture which gets ruined by toasting

    #1240697

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Do you even have a bagel license?

    #1240957

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Rav Herschel Shachter ate a toasted bagel. How can you say it’s assur D’Aroysa?

    #1240961

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    That wasn’t on Shabbos.

    #1240973

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its assur D’Araysa Kol Hazman to toast a Bagel, even on a tuesday

    #1241098

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Another nonsensical thread. People toast bagels all the time. Stop with this “assur” nonsense.

    #1241164

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Everyone here missed the most important point of the OP. Who said it’s mutar to eat lox???!!!

    For me, it’s totally assur (although it might be a d’Rabbanan). And if anyone is interested, I can bring the source.

    #1241189

    Geordie613
    Participant

    I’m completely lost on this thread. What are you people talking about? I think lox is salmon, but why would you want to toast a bagel, before putting the oily fish on?

    #1241192

    I’m interested.

    #1241230

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Geordie, lox is typically brined and smoked salmon, which should not be called oily. And toasting a bagel is much like toasting bread. It is done to refresh a stale bagel, or to improve texture.

    #1241243

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LU: thousands yidden eat lox (aka smoked salmon) on a daily basis. Why do you think it is assur?

    Geordie613: butter also melts on s toasted bagel making it oily.

    #1241244

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Randomex – thank you for your interest. I looked it up and realized that my source wasn’t actually the best source, although I imagine there is another one.

    In the Mishna Berurah, Siman 5, s”k 17, he says that even though the Shulchan Aruch says that a guest has to listen to his host, this does not apply to a case where the host is trying to get him to eat more and he does not want to, since it might make him sick if he eats more.

    Until I looked it up just now, I had mistakenly thought that the MB said that if the host wants him to eat a specific food he doesn’t want to eat, he does not have to (or shouldn’t) because eating foods that you don’t want to eat can make you sick.

    However, I think it is possible that one can learn this out from the MB (that it would apply to the host trying to get him to eat a specific food he doesn’t want to eat even though he does want to eat more – he just doesn’t want that food) even though he doesn’t say so explicitly.

    He actually does not say that it’s assur – just that you don’t have to.

    However, I do think it’s assur to eat something that would make you sick, since you are not supposed to do things that are bad for you, but that apparently is not the source for it.

    In any case, eating lox would make me throw up since I don’t like it, so I think that it would be assur for me to eat it.

    #1241260

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    I would not be making a bagel and lox…..I don’t like salmon in any form.
    That said, I always toast my bagels (no, I don’t eat them on Shabbos) and spread them with margarine.
    No cream cheese, no raw tomato, no raw onion, no capers.

    I love crunch

    #1241267

    bmyer
    Participant

    Melted cream cheese in a bagel is a taste of gan eden so if you’re a goy (and goyim don’t get a chailek) you should probably not toast it…

    #1241289

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Speaking of toast how do you if pumpernickel toast is burnt?

    #1241287

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    If you keep the 7 Mitzvos b’nei Noach they do.

    #1241261

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Iacisrmma – I said it’s assur for me. The second sentence was a joke.

    but btw, I believe it’s assur for sephardim to eat cream cheese with lox, since the Bais Yosef says you aren’t allowed to eat milk and fish together.

    Sometimes in bagel places, if someone asks for a bagel with cream cheese and lox, they ask if he’s Sefardi, and if he is they won’t give it to him.

    It’s an important halacha to know so that you aren’t inadvertantly machshil any sefardi guests you may have.

    #1241295

    bmyer
    Participant

    Not sure if that’s agreed to by everyone…

    #1241296

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    LU: you wrote “who says it’s muttar to eat lox?”. Just because it makes you sick doesn’t meN it assur for someone else.

    #1241307

    Joseph
    Participant

    What if after being refused service for a bagel, lox and cream cheese, the Sefardi sues for religious discrimination?

    #1241315

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Iacisrmma – I wrote that that sentence was a joke.

    bmyer – You may be right about that. I should have qualified that statement and allowed for the possibility that there may be other opinions. I actually did think that all Sefardim held that way, but after I posted, I was cleaning my sefarim shelves for Pesach and came across a sefer on hilchos Kashrus. I opened it up and on the page I opened up to it said that not all sefardim hold this way (I didn’t look up his source, however).

    Joseph – This was in Israel. You are not supposed to be able to force someone to do something against halacha. If there are other opinions, then you are right. But I might not be remembering the details precisely – maybe if the guy was sefardi, they simply pointed out the issue to him.

    #1241316

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    There was once a spokesman for the Chareidim in Eretz Yisrael who claimed that there are no Chareidim in the US because in the US, Jews eat bagels with cream cheese and lox which (according to this person) is clearly against halacha.

    I think that the Bais Yosef says that you can’t eat fish with milk, but others (I think either the Shach or the Taz or both) claim it’s a taus sofrim or something. So Litvaks hold it’s okay, but many Sefardim and I think Chassidim hold it’s assur. The man who said that was Chassidish and I guess he hadn’t learned Hilchos Basar B’Chalav so he didn’t realize that there are other legitimate opinions.

    #1241328

    Joseph
    Participant

    Bagel, lox and cream cheese is a very Chasidishe delicacy.

    #1241332

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Bagels and lox are wonders of creation and should be respected.

    #1241343

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Maybe it’s Israeli Chassidim?

    #1241404

    bmyer
    Participant

    LU: I was actually saying that not everyone agrees that goyim get olam haba…

    #1241415

    takahmamash
    Participant

    or is that a breakfast faux pas like the dreaded (red condiment) on eggs?

    Sriracha? What’s wrong with Sriracha on eggs?

    #1241421

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    bmyer – oh, I guess I was feeling guilty for not qualifying my statement in case there are other opinions.

    But that is news to me. Where does it say that goyim might not get Olam Haba?

    #1241629

    Geordie613
    Participant

    What if the Sfardi decides to change his mesorah?

    #1241688

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    I don’t know if they are allowed to or not. I guess they’d have to ask. Personally, I have never heard of a case of a Sephardi asking if he can become “Ashkenazi”. I wonder if anyone has and what they were told.

    Also, would it make a difference if he were getting married to an Ashkenazi and wanted to take on her minhagim instead of the other way around?

    #1242734

    bmyer
    Participant

    LU: It’s a mochlokes in the gemora in sanhedrin (although the Rambam does paskin that goyim do it’s definitely a different chailek then jews).

    #1242738

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    bmyer, thank you. But l’maaseh, don’t we “posken” that way? Or is it the type of thing that remains a machlokes?

    #1242740

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Do other Rishonim posken differently?

    #1243091

    bmyer
    Participant

    Not sure. I only looked at the rambam because he’s usually the go to on these types of issues…

    #1243117

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Btw, I found out recently that even if a goy does not get a chelik in olam haba either because he didn’t observe the 7 Mitzvos perfectly or didn’t do them for the right reasons, this does not mean that he will not be rewarded after he dies. A cheilik in Olam Haba is a specific type of reward (presumably the best) but there are other rewards.

    I was very relieved when I heard this because there can be very good people who did not keep all the 7 Mitzvos perfectly or for the right reasons.

    #1243240

    huju
    Participant

    Breakfast faux pas? bacon.

    #1243252

    bmyer
    Participant

    “I was very relieved when I heard this because there can be very good people who did not keep all the 7 Mitzvos perfectly or for the right reasons.”

    LU: Why??!?
    Also the Rambam (I think it’s the same one as before) says that even if a goy does keep the 7 mitzvos if they don’t do it because hashem told them to they don’t get a chailek.

    For example if a goy doesn’t kill or steal because it’s not moral (or against the law) or he’s loyal to his wife because he’s scared or he loves her…he WILL NOT get a chailek.

    #1243257

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    oh my gosh, I just had such de ja vous! Did you post the same thing before? I know I did.

    I’m relieved because I felt bad for all those good people who I thought were doomed.

    Regarding your last point, I know that, and that was one of my reasons for concern.

    #1243262

    Joseph
    Participant

    If a goy violates even a single of the sheva mitzvos, even once in his life, even if he violated it b’shogeg he is chayiv misa and goes to gehenom.

    #1243273

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    going to geninom is not a stira to getting reward. Many people have both – geninom for their aveiros (l”a) and reward for their Mitzvos.

    but not everyone gets geninom for their aveiros- they can get their punishment in this world. At least Jews can, and I see no reason why it wouldn’t be the same for goyim.

    #1244818

    bmyer
    Participant

    Why do you even care? This world exists bshviel yisroel…why would you care for a (sort of) nice goy to get rewarded??

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