- This topic has 97 replies, 39 voices, and was last updated 15 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
I just saw an ad for another lipa concert so I went to http://www.theeventlive.com and it seems like lipa will be trying again, this year on march 1st! Anyone have any info? Who else will be performing with lipa at the concert? Have gedolim approved this concert?!
I posted something about this a few months back.( I read it in an extremely reliable place) I’m guessing they got the gedolim’s haskoma this time before going ahead with any plans..
Does anyone in the CR have more details, any one else connected here with lipa or sheya?
I’m renting out part of the seats just for CR Memebers, whoever wants a seat in the CR section just let me know!!
It’s irrelevant if the “gedolim” approved of it or not. Their past actions of signing things without doing due diligence and then not being held responsible for their actions has caused most people to ignore their statements. If I were them, I would not ban this one. It will not go over well at all. Last I heard they still did not make restitution as they PROMISED in their letter. This time, I would not be surprised if legal action was taken against those that sign. I know I would.
Have gedolim approved this concert?!
I am more concerned that many people will be afraid to buy tickets (once burned, twice shy) after the last debacle. I really hope those same gedolim re-consider their original position and understand that there was a bit of zealous overreaction about this the previous time.
He saw how much attention he got by the BIG event, so he’s trying it again!!
B’H Acheinu Bnei Yisroel is looking to our Gedolim for guidance in even mundane matters!
Mi K’Amchu Yisroel!
Have gedolim approved this concert?!
Do we have to have the gedolim’s permission before any public event (or private?) is held?
The Wolf
joseph,
B’H Acheinu Bnei Yisroel ”’ARE”’ looking to our Gedolim for guidance in even mundane matters!
Of course we must seek the Gedolim’s wise counsel regarding events that entail both genders. There are major tznius issues involved (by definition).
no … how pathetic we have to look ….
can we not make our own decisions?
or maybe you need to ask before sneezing as well?
wow. look at what this world has come to.
no … how pathetic we have to look ….
can we not make our own decisions?
or maybe you need to ask before sneezing as well?
how can you say something like that? rabbonim are constantly approving or disapproving of concerts. so we know it’s an issue. not that everyone listens, but yes, they should be consulted. if you’re so independent as to not seek their advice, at least don’t mock others for their emunas chachamim. you should know better than that.
and yes, Wolf. before any public or private event is held, it would be kinda nice if the people involved would get it approved.
Why is it when it comes to a concert everyone is jumping to wonder what the gedolim say and do as they say, but when it comes to things like the internet, smoking, tv, kosher phones only… people seem to turn a closed ear to what the rabonim have to say?
so that’s not right either. we’ve discussed this a billion times. and mind you, anyone who posts on here, whether right or wrong, but they have internet access. (except for don’t have internet… dunno how he manages that one…)
like i said, we don’t always listen, but we should at least KNOW when we’re doing something wrong. it’s the first step.
brooklyn19,
Your last comment was very well said.
why thank you, Joseph. At least I know my head is screwed on straight. Not that I thought otherwise :}
The website didn’t open yet how can anyone know?
and yes, Wolf. before any public or private event is held, it would be kinda nice if the people involved would get it approved.
Brooklyn,
Wow! Any event public or private? So I have to go to a gadol and get his approval before I get married? I have to get a gadol’s approval before and upsherin, a bar mitzvah or a plain ol’ birthday party? I have to get a gadol’s approval before I hold a kiddush in my shul? If I want to have my parents and a few friends over for an afternoon with the kids, that’s got to have a gadol’s approval too? A gadol has to approve every chinese auction, every BY play, every concert, every shiur given in every shul or other venue and every minyan?
Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying when you say “any public or private event?”
The Wolf
i think you know the answer yourself.
oh and i know that comment was full of sarcasm, but yes, many of those3 things should be approved beforehand. what’s the big deal? if it’s not gonna be a problem then what’s the harm in asking? ten minutes talking to a rav? what a zchus! and if you think it might be a problem then you had BETTER ask!
brooklyn, halacha gives us guidelines on how we live our lives. We should be able to follow those guidelines without running a rav at every step. (Unless you are chassidish – IIRC they go to their Rebbi for most things like who to marry and other things)
The rabbonim have to pick and choose what they battle over (non-halachic issues only). For example, look at the wedding takanos – no one I know really follows them. Why? Because the exceptions are for the rich or the rabbonim…which means that its not a halachic issues, just an issue the rabbonim have championed. When the community rejects a takana or statement from rabbonim, it reduces the rabbonim to “figure heads” rather than spiritual leaders. Rabbonim are nothing if no one follows them (think about this before responding and try to understand what I mean. If you can’t quite get it, I can expand on it). The last time they cancelled this was a debacle – lets hope they don’t do something like taht again.
OK, then I ask you — what’s the definition of a “private or public event” that requires a rav’s haskama? And which ones can I just do on my own based on my own knowledge?
The Wolf
Brooklyn,
So then I ask you: what is the definition of a “public or private event” that requires the haskama of a gadol?
The Wolf
actually, i said it in those words because you did.
Do we have to have the gedolim’s permission before any public event (or private?) is held?
but i still think that a chinese auction, a BY play, and a concert should be approved. and BEFORE they become public knowledge. making a birthday party for your five year-old kid should not be a problem. if you wanna invite exotic dancers, i’d suggest you clear it with you LOR. i can’t believe i’m telling someone much older than i am to USE THEIR COMMON SENSE! come on!
Brooklyn,
You’re not telling me how to use my common sense… I’m trying to find out the extent of your rule. I *already* know how I would act in each of the cases I mentioned.
When you use vague terms like “any event,” I want to know the extent of that “any” according to you. While you (and I) may think it’s obvious that a five-year’s old party (sans the exotic dancers) can proceed without a gadol’s haskama, others may not feel so. Since you were vague in your rule, I simply wanted to find out how far you were willing to go with “any.”
The Wolf
to Brooklyn,
The problem, as stated above, is that the last ” Lipa ban ” caused a large financial hardship and, as Rav Kaminetsky of Philadelphia later admitted, he never actually read ( let alone investigated ) what he was signing. While he was the only one to admit it, there must have been others among the signatories and it results in other kol korehs being ignored. Gadolim are not angels and all-knowing in all areas. Going to a rav for all decisions is a chassidish, not a yeshivish custom.
great. so don’t assume this next concert is ok. go back to rav shmuel kaminetsky and ask.
you trust yourself more? wow. i mean, i’ve got a lot of confidence in myself, but i’m not God. if anyone’s gonna make a mistake, i’d rather it be a gadol. at least he’s got a lot more on his side.
yossiea: you are a rusha; anyone that talks about the Gedolim like that, is sure to end up in gehenim.
im sure he will get the rabonims cosent, because if not people will have a very hard time buying tickets (after what happened last time)
Mature adults can make decisions on their own, particularly when it comes to mundane matters. If there are halachic issues involved, then we can sit down and study them, either on our own or with a Rav. Who would object to more Torah study?
It’s unfair to the gedolim to consult them for every BY play or other small event. Ten minutes of one’s time may not be a lot, but what about the gadol who has to spend ten minutes listening to every Chani or Rochel out there? I for one would not want to be the one to distract him from his Torah learning and everything else he does for the community unless it was an urgent matter that desperately needed his attention. Does a play or Chinese auction really qualify?
yossiea,
I have to be moche for the kavod of Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky Shlita, and I hope you will call him and ask for mechila. There are not too many aveiros as big as being publicly mevazeh talmidei chachomim. And btw, he’s a really nice person and I’m certain he will be mochel you if you ask.
Yes, he said he made a mistake but I don’t believe for one second that he signed without reading it. He was probably taking the blame for himself to cover for someone else. Anyone who knows him personally will tell you that this is typical of him – to be mevater on his kovod to avoid someone else being embarrased. I’m sure that there is more to the ban than what the public is aware of.
However, even without all that, even if Rav Shmuel would have just had a lapse in judgement and made a mistake, to compare that to a klutzy cardiologist who kills one patient after the next????? Do you know how many issues that affect klal yisroel he is involved in? Do you know how many yeshivos, day schools and communities across the country come to him for advice, not to mention the countless individuals he helps? And not to mention all the harbotzas hatorah he has done for over 50 years bli ayon horah in the Philly Yeshiva which he started and runs? I’m scared to write all this because I’m certainly understating it – who am I to give a haskamah on a Gadol – but after your silly attacks, someone has to speak up to defend the kavod hatorah.
Just curious – has anyone written a impartial book/essay/study on how the office and concept of gedolim/manhigim have evolved within Yahadus over our long history? The Torah says to us “listen to your leaders” numerous times, how have different generations spread over thousands of years interpreted the Torah’s admonition?
JFem02
that’s what they’re there for. they devote a large part of their time to the tzibbur. i guarantee if you would repeat that to an adam gadol he would not agree with you.
i once called my rav up late at night do discuss something that was bothering me. i started out feeling guilty and i said “you’re busy?’ he answered “if i am that’s my problem. you don’t have to worry about that – if i ever can’t speak i’ll let you know.”
and every school and organization should have a rav that they can consult on a regular basis. we’re jewish people and we live by the torah and we need gedolim to guide us. as brilliant as we may be, we can not rely on our own thoughts and ideas.
wait so all you people – would you attempt to do heart surgery because your cardiologist is inept? no way! so don’t go and paskin on your own.
in reference to a kol signed by many Gedolim, yossiea writes:
“Every single person who signed that is guilty of perpetuating a Chillul Hashem”
this ugly wickedness is tolerated by YWN?
yossiea:
to quote a muppet “you have much anger in you, it may be your undoing” 🙂
You have the right to choose your own path (within halacha), but please do not disparage those who choose a different path. That is what you ask from others, so I feel correct to ask it from you and not disparage other’s gedolim.
P.S. Thank you Charles. Dan Lekaf Zechus applies even to public figures, Kal VChomer the Rav.
yossiea,
I am reading way too many of your sick posts per minute. Enough!
Yes, gedolim do “devote a large part of their time to the tzibbur”, but again, this is for serious issues that truly require a gadol’s opinion. Your personal Rav is not a gadol and has a lot more free time to speak to you. If you’re so worried about a play or chinese auction, speak to him. Don’t take precious minutes away from a gadol who could be helping someone else, e.g. giving a bracha to a childless couple. Wouldn’t that take precedence?
brooklyn19, actually you can and should act upon your thoughts and ideas IF you are qualified. If you know the answer you don’t need to ask a rav. We are “people of the book.” If we study and know something, then we don’t need to ask for guidance. We never did until less than 100 years ago or so.
“i once called my rav up late at night do discuss something that was bothering me. i started out feeling guilty and i said “you’re busy?’ he answered “if i am that’s my problem. you don’t have to worry about that – if i ever can’t speak i’ll let you know.””
sounds like you are very lucky to have this Rav
“we’re jewish people and we live by the Torah and we need Gedolim to guide us. as brilliant as we may be, we can not rely on our own thoughts and ideas.”
beautiful words
ps may i suggest you capatalize “Torah” certainly, and i think “Gedolim” also would be
appropriate, feivel
lol i’m too lazy when i type, but you’re right, feivel
JFem02 – let’s see. what’s more important? blessing a yid with a child (which is definitely important!) or preventing a yid from sinning? tough choice.
mind you, i have more than one rav that i consult. some for personal issues and yes, i go to a posek (and great Gadol)for halachic matters. don’t EVER hold back on consulting a rav. any rav, small-time or not will agree with me on this.
sounds like you’re idea of Gedolim is to milk them for all they’ve got and throw out their wisdom.
please, i’d love for you to disprove me on that. the stage is all yours.
Feivel, Just a quick suggestion; its customary to italicize the quote, and use regular characters for your own comments. Following this usually makes it easier for others to follow, since it how many readers are used to reading comments.
Brooklyn, there is a reason we are educated with halacha. When I learnt hilchos shabbos and how to apply it, I don’t bother my Rabbi every time I come across a situation, unless the situation is different than what I was taught about. Can you imagine if I would ask my Rabbi every week about the same thing? Its ludicrous! So, my Rabbi tells me what the halacha is, and then I apply it. When I come across something that is different, then I consult my Rav again.
I have to be able to apply halacha to my own life. There is no one standing there with me at every step of the way. Otherwise, we would each have our own Rabbi walking right behind us. Its a crazy thought.
I would rather have my Rav spend time answering questions that need answering, not “Should I attend sheva brachos?” The only time I would consult him on going to sheva brachos for example might be if its for someone I know who is Reform because they might count me in a minyan (I have no clue if reform does sheva brachos, just a hypothetical). I never hesitate to call my Rav if the situation warrants it, but I don’t bother my Rav unnecessarily!
OK, I think must certainly be time for my two cents. After all, I know you’ve all been waiting with baited breath to hear what David Bar-Magen has to say. 🙂
Brooklyn19: Your enthusiasm is to be commended. In an era where too many reject the concept of intuitive limitations, it’s nice to see that there are those who still rely on the wisdom of others. However, it might be helpful to you to know the facts of the last Lipa fiasco.
1. First of all, Sheya Mendlowitz has arranged many, many concerts in his time–all of which featured standards acceptable to the Orthodox community. There has always been separate seating, a no-alcohol policy, and various staff on hand to discourage the intermingling of guys and girls before and during the concert. They have always been family-oriented, with none of the drunk-and-getting-high-at-two-in-the-morning atmosphere that your more mainstream concert would feature. So what went wrong?
2. There have been, and probably always will be a large of number of ignorant, hateful people who like to think of themselves as “askanim” and “pillars of the community,” mostly because of their upwardly mobile financial situations. These people passionately disliked Sheya Mendlowitz and Lipa and told Sheya directly–as per his account on Nachum Segal–that they intended to bring down “him and the sheigetz.”
3. Obviously, gedolim are expected to lend an extra-careful ear to pillars of the community, and so it was quite easy for these askanim to present R’ Kamenetsky, along with many other rabbanim, with a formal complaint about the “to’evah” that was going to happen in Klal Yisrael, explaining to him that boys and girls would mingle and become intoxicated at this event. They even submitted a form for him to sign; a ban whose exact Hebrew and Yiddish wording was lifted from an Israeli ban of Avraham Fried and MBD that was produced in Meah Shearim about five years ago.
4. R’ Kamenetsky, as per his OWN STATEMENT to his talmidim and community, did not adequately investigate the truth of these stories. We need not fault him for this; gedolim are very busy at all times, be it with answering she’elos or offering guidance to girls over the phone. 🙂 The fault lies with these self-proclaimed askanim, who are nothing more than hateful control freaks and thugs who dare to put on a hat and jacket and lie directly to a gadol’s face. It is not Lipa or Sheya who lacks emunas chachamim, it is them.
THEREFORE:
What has been good enough for Sheya’s concerts for the past 20 years should still be good enough now. He works in close conjunction with many gedolim, all of whom have had a say in his concerts for years. Those same guidelines should hold true for any of his concerts without necessarily running out to ask a six-month she’ela every time.
Understand that a tremendous amount of personal and municipal funds were lost because of the Madison Square Garden fiasco last time. It wasn’t a big kiddush Hashem and a result of emunas chachamim; it was a result of us allowing ourselves to be misled by a bunch of self-righteous shtarkers who prey on the masses’ zeal to prove their obedience to Halacha. Yet it wasn’t halacha that caused this loss; it was a sham.
Yes, we are expected to turn to our gedolim for guidance but no, we do not nor have we ever asked their permission for every life decision. If that were the case, we might as well worship human beings just like the pagan religions of old.
We are charged to learn and know halacha just as the gedolim are charged to. While we turn to them for guidance because of their much broader scope of knowledge and understanding, we are not expected to negate our very lives and morality to them. If halacha developed through blind obedience, why are there so many disagreements and alternate opinions in the gemara? Why does the word “machlokes” even exist?
We all strive to be ovdei Hashem, right? Maybe it’s time to act like it.
brooklyn19, no need to take a sarcastic tone.
If you are really unsure about a particular event and sincerely believe that there is a possibility of someone sinning as a direct result of that event- fine. Be my guest and consult a Rav, but again, I don’t think a gadol’s opinion is necessary. Why wouldn’t an ordinary Rav know enough? Anyway, I don’t see how there would be any issue with the events that were mentioned. BY plays are generally conducted in a tznius way; the girls’ costumes are extremely modest even though the audiences are all female. What kind of sinning would occur that makes it so important to ask the gadol?
I’m sorry that you misunderstood me before. Perhaps I didn’t make myself clear enough. I would never advocate “milking” gedolim “for all they’ve got”. Did you infer this from my comment about the childless couple? That was just the first example that came to mind, but certainly, gedolim have tremendous wisdom that should not c”v be “thrown out”; rather, it should not be wasted on small matters that local rebbeim can deal with. This discussion is reminding me strongly of Parshat Yitro (my bat mitzvah parsha!) Yitro instituted a system because Moshe Rabbeinu was unable to deal with the torrent of questions coming his way and was just exhausted from being on his feet all day. So Yitro gave all but the most urgent and difficult questions to lesser authorities. Shouldn’t we do the same now?
SJS – use your common sense. i don’t call up my rav before every time i eat something to ask him the bracha either. if something’s a fact and you’ve learned the halacha, great. but most of what we’ve been talking about are not black and white. and there’s a whole lot of gray in life (and i’m only 17 and i know that already…)
i hear, Bar Magen. so fax that over to Rav Shmuel. honestly? i’m not against Lipa or his concert. but if a Gadol says “no” then for me it’s “no.” if that Rav changes his mind – kol a hakavod.
jfem – you’re right. (first of all – thank for clarifying. i hope that’s not how people view our Gedolim.) and yes, you can ask your Rav (like i ask mine) when you have a question. if he has a question he goes to another Rav, right? so why are we- regular people- above that? but if your Rav disagrees with the Gedolay hador – there’s nothing wrong with asking him about that! (obviously in a respectful way.)
and btw it’s not muttar to go against a p’sak from our Rabbonim. so yeah, there may be just a few sins involved.
and feivel: this capitalization business is driving me nuts.
brooklyn19,
As people get older and mature, the colors often clarify.
as does knowledge. granted. but “often is the key word here. no one in this world has 20/20 color vision.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.