bringing babies and small children to megillah reading

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  • #595184

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Do you think it is acceptable to bring babies and small children who cannot sit quietly to megillah reading? Why or why not?

    #742984

    doodle jump
    Participant

    It is not acceptable to bring babies and children to shul whom you know will have a hard time being quiet. It is not fair. Do the right thing and stay home. You can hear the meggilah at a later time.

    #742985

    arc
    Participant

    Im a father of 3 and honestly it isnt a question. no it isnt acceptable

    #742986

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, if it’s a women’s only reading.

    #742987

    deiyezooger
    Member

    If they cannot be quiet then of course not, beside disturbing other people you will not be yoitze yourself. If you expect the child to sleep through the leining or quietly eat his pekele you still need to know that you take a risk, the second the child becomes resstless you have to walk out. To bad if you spent helf an hour getting ready and another helf hour looking for parking.

    #742988

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    so why is it okay if it is a ladies reading? the reason why there is a ladies kriyah is that they can leave the kids home with a husband or baby sitter so they can listen to megillah with menuchas nefesh and do the mitzvah.

    #742989

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    popa: why? Are women patur? (rhetorical question)

    I lein at home for my grandmother every year. Last year a couple of local women whose children were too young to behave in shul came too. It was a small enough group that I could simply stop every time a child started disrupting and continued when their mothers calmed them down.

    #742990

    Ofcourse
    Member

    No! With the best of intentions, even when mothers run out as soon as the kids cry or talk, it interrupts the Megillah.

    #742991

    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    No, it’s not acceptable.

    In order to get the Mitzvah of hearing the Megillah, each man AND woman must hear every word. He or she certainly can’t do that if the babies and small children can’t sit quietly and not make noise, and if the babies and children have to be constantly shushed.

    There is usually more than one Megillah reading at night and in the morning. Do the correct and decent thing, and leave your children with someone who has already heard the first Megillah reading, or who will hear the Megillah reading after you’ve attended the first Megillah reading.

    The Shul today takes the place of the Bais HaMikdash (from “Praying with Fire”). Besides your being able to get the entire Mitzvah of hearing the Megilla reading, your leaving children at home (who can’t behave properly in Shul) teaches them that they can’t come to Hashem’s House until they can sit quietly and daven or listen to the Megillah, because Hashem’s Presence is in the Shul, and one must behave with Respect towards Hashem, the King of Kings.

    A Shul is not a playground or a baby-sitting service.

    If you took a child to work with you, one day; would you let the child run around and make noise?

    So would you let your children run around and make noise in the Bais HaMikdash, the House of the King of Kings?

    So why would you bring to Shul (which is in the place of the Bais HaMikdash today) or a Megillah reading, babies and small children who cannot sit quietly?

    #742992

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Wah.. Mommy can’t take me this year!!

    #742993

    commonsense
    Participant

    to popa, women have the same chiyuv as men and crying babies and talking children disturb women as much as men. I get upset when I see young children at women’s laining, the purpose of the second laining is that the children can stay at home presumably with the father and the women can hear the megillah. If fact it is easier if children go to the first laining because there they stop longer for haman and the children have an outlet, by the women’s laining they ususally go past haman with very little fanfare.

    #742994

    Understand
    Member

    Sorry popa, even if it’s a women’s only reading, bringing children who can’t be quiet is not acceptable. The women have to hear the megila as well and if the children are making noise, (and the mothers are ignoring them, as tends to happen), then it’s not fair to everyone around. Leave them at home with someone who already heard or will hear later.

    #742995

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    so why is it okay if it is a ladies reading?

    You asked the question; you can’t be annoyed with the answer.

    #742996

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    I asked the question in order to encourage discussion on a matter that really bothers me. It really bothers me when a baby is screaming next to me and then I feel upset because I left my babies home with my husband so I could listen to the megillah. I am glad to see that many posters agree with me, like “QuestionForYou”. I try to go to megillah readings late at night when most kids are sleeping and early the next morning (when they are still sleeping) 🙂 I love kids but not their noise during megillah reading!

    #742997

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Oh. I thought you were asking because you wanted to hear opinions.

    So I figured to give a differing opinion. I chose women’s readings because I figured people might think I was serious.

    #742998

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I lain Megillah in a large shul every year. I can tell you that, as a ba’al kriah, I hate disturbances of any type, including that of children crying. Part of the problem is that I have to balance the needs of the k’lal against that of individual people.

    I don’t want people to miss the opportunity to be yotzei the mitzvah of Krias HaMegillah. The problem is that if I stopped (and went back) *every* time I hear a disturbance, the Megillah laining would take hours. So that means that I have to make a judgment call on whether to stop and go back or not.

    The result is that every time I lain for the tzibbur, there are, undoubtedly, some women who were not yotzei, since I can’t *always* go back (and there are also, no doubt, some disturbances that I don’t hear but, nonetheless, cause people to not be yotzei).

    The Wolf

    #742999

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    I would like to understand the reasoning why women bring young babies and children to shul for megillah reading. So far everyone is on my side, saying it is very disruptive and unfair to others. would like to hear the other side of the story.

    #743000

    Ofcourse
    Member

    Ima I would like to understand the reasoning why women bring young babies and children to shul for megillah reading.

    Theyre optimistic that THIS time the child/ren will be an angel/s.

    #743001

    commonsense
    Participant

    one thing I do when my children get old enough to learn about listening to megillah but not able to sit through it is I go to megillah for a little bit. We stand outside until we hear a haman and come in then so not to disturb. we stay for a few minutes so the child/children can chap a few hamans and then leave during a haman. It gives the child the feeling of having heard the megillah without having to be quiet which for sure would not happen. Of course it means i have to go to the later laining to be yotzei.

    #743002

    wolf

    Part of the problem is that I have to balance the needs of the k’lal against that of individual people.

    what about ????? ??????? ask a ???? ?????

    #743003

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    what about ????? ??????? ask a ???? ?????

    In the middle of laining????

    The Wolf

    #743004

    Now !! I did not mean 11:05 PM

    #743005

    aries2756
    Participant

    Sorry to say, absolutely not. No one is yotzeh if they miss even one word.

    #743006

    real-brisker
    Member

    Why even bother going? Forget about everyone else – You yourself wont be yoitzeh (if you miss words).

    #743007

    hanib
    Participant

    no way. i keep my kids home until they’re about 5 and really know how to sit still and quietly for the whole thing.

    #743008

    m in Israel
    Member

    Just to help people be Dan Lkaf Zchus a little and understand, often there are children who really are too young to be quiet the whole time, but they already go to school/ preschool/ gan and have learned all about listening to the megilla, made their graggers, etc. Parents are now put in the position of having to tell them they are too young to come! Some parents just hope things will work out, with the results discussed above!

    In my old neighborhood they addressed this issue by having a “kids megilla reading”. The Bal Korai at this minyan would lein about half of the megilah, for kids. It was not to be yotzei the Mitzvah, but to give them the opportunity to come to shul, listen to part of the megillah, shake their graggers, etc., without disturbing the real kriah.

    Maybe this idea can be adopted in other places!

    #743009

    shuli
    Participant

    i really like the idea of a separate liening for kids!

    #743010

    mewho
    Participant

    in my neighborhood they have a few extra readings for women only. this way the men can stay home with the kids and the wife can go hear .

    sometimes the hatzalah guys who miss it being read coz of a hatzalah call come to these extra readings too.

    #743011

    ✡onegoal™
    Participant

    If your kids can’t be quiet the whole time there is no reason they should be there.

    #743012

    oomis
    Participant

    Young parents, please listen up. IT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE TO BRING SMALL KIDS OR CRYING BABIES TO SHUL. It is not acceptable during a regular davening, if they will disturb others, and it is not acceptable even more so at a Megillah laining, which cannot be done over on the spot once you have missed a word, because the baal kriah does not know and it is assur for you to speak, anyway.

    I stayed home for many years and had my father O”H lain for me, when I had small children. I only sent my kids to shul when they were old enough to sit quietly and not interrupt anyone’s kavanah. You do no mitzvah and you actually do an aveira, when you think you are being mechaneich small children by bringing them to shul when they are not yet ready. Just a thought.

    The kids’ megillah reading idea sounds excellent btw, as long as they stay in there.

    #743013

    commonsense
    Participant

    m in Israel, love the idea of a kid’s laining!!!

    #743014

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    I believe that if you think you missed a word of the megillah you can read it yourself and then catch up quickly to the person who is reading.

    #743015

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I believe that if you think you missed a word of the megillah you can read it yourself and then catch up quickly to the person who is reading.

    Yes, but only if you’re using a kosher megillah.

    The Wolf

    #743016

    Wolf, I heard otherwise from one of the biggest poskim in Yerushalayim. He said that if one misses a few words, they can read it themselves from their sefer until they catch up. I was once in a situation where there were many, many children in shul and I had to keep reading to myself to catch up. I asked a shaila afterwards to see if I was yotzei and the psak was that I was, as long as I hadn’t read more than a certain percentage of it (which I cannot recall right now).

    #743017

    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    1) What happens if you’re trying to calm down a crying baby or a small child who won’t keep quiet and you miss a word and can’t catch up?

    2) What happens if you have to read to yourself, more than the certain percentage of the Megillah?

    In any case, is this an excuse to bring to Shul, babies and children who make noise during the Megillah reading or Davening?

    #743018

    amichai
    Participant

    totally not acceptable to bring young children to shul for laining. our shul tells parents to leave (b4 laining) if the child will disrupt.

    #743019

    me too
    Member

    Mother in Israel wrote

    Wolf, I heard otherwise from one of the biggest poskim in Yerushalayim. He said that if one misses a few words, they can read it themselves from their sefer until they catch up

    And I checked in Shulchan Aruch & saw otherwise!!

    #743020

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, I heard otherwise from one of the biggest poskim in Yerushalayim.

    OK. I could very easily be wrong. Lord knows it wouldn’t be the first time in my life.

    The Wolf

    #743021

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I’ve heard about catching up w/o using a kosher megillah as well, but that it was for minor misses (like a word or two) not paragraphs.

    My oldest is very good. He can sit quietly if you tell him to. He regularly goes to shul with my husband and behaves. I brought him to megillah even as a young baby/child without issues.

    Unfortunately, the women’s section in my shul is so noisy with kids, that while you can hear, I’m not sure what to do with my 17 month old. Bring him? Not Bring him? We’ll see what happens.

    #743022

    charliehall
    Participant

    “would like to hear the other side of the story. “

    Sometimes there is no other side. Remember Tevye in “Fiddler on the Roof” when his daughter decided to marry a non-Jew?

    #743023

    QuestionForYou, I was not implying that this halacha makes it okay to bring babies to shul. I’m adamantly against that and always go to a different reading than my husband so the kids can stay home. We let our kids come once they’re around 7 and only after a little lecture on how important it is to be quiet.

    #743025

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Some Halachic backgroud:

    One is not allowed to lain Megillah from a sefer (non Klaf). However just like a Megillah that is missing some letters or even words (or even an entire Pasuk) is still valid (SA 690:3), and one can read those letters and words by heart (ibid), one can also be read the megillah Via Shomaya K’One from the Klaf, and read “some words” Ba’al Peh. (catching up to where the Koreh is), as long as Rov is read from the Klaf.

    However, an entire “Inyan” can not be left out of the Megillah, so it can not be read Ba’al Pah, so it can’t be made up either.

    As usual, ask your LOR for actual practice.

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