Brisk

  • This topic contains 27 replies, has 21 voices, and was last updated by  jdb 1 week ago.
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  • #1554078

    Mnb098
    Participant

    What’s actually so great about it? Besides for the practical aspects of having gone there i.e shidduchim, is there realistically any benefit as far as learning is concerned? Especially since nowadays many yeshivas follow the brisker derech halimud, it doesn’t even seem that it has the advantage of a unique style of learning. For the record, I’m not approaching this with cynicism, I’m genuinely curious.

    #1554253

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Considering that there are numerous yeshivos in e’y and ch’l that are way bigger than brisk, I would say many, many, many people agree with you.

    #1554320

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Is there really a point to a thread like this? If you really aren’t approaching this with cynicism, there are much more respectful ways of wording the OP. Can we close this now before the arm chair comments begin?

    #1554271

    DrYidd
    Participant

    brisk was a reaction to modernity as is academic talmud. all methods have intrinsic and ancillary benefits,

    #1554371

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    Learning directly from the sons of the Brisker Rav?

    #1554370

    🍫Syag Lchochma,

    What is wrong ?To the contrary
    The poster has raised something that many males debate and ponder

    #1554360

    Toi
    Participant

    MnB- if for nothing else, you get to hear it all from the horse’s mouth.

    #1554500

    Chaver
    Participant

    Dear apushetayid,
    Which Yeshivos besides Mir and Bmg are bigger than Brisk?

    #1554336

    Joseph
    Participant

    Aside from any derech halimud consideration, Brisk learns on a much higher level than the average Yeshiva. Whether quality, quantity and/or the level and seriousness of the bochorim themselves.

    #1554526

    Joseph
    Participant

    Brisk has a higher level of learning and a higher level of serious bochorim than most Yeshivos.

    #1554535

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    Of the 10’s of thousands of bochrim who went through bmg and mir , how many actually became gedolei hador in the past 30 years?

    #1554656

    WinnieThePooh
    Participant

    “how many actually became gedolei hador in the past 30 years?”

    Mass producing gedolei hador by age 50 or so (assuming bochur is in early 20s when he started to learn there) is a pretty high standard for any yeshiva, don’t you think?
    I can think of several talmidei chachamim and roshei yeshiva/kollel who have learned in the Mir in the past 30 years though.

    #1554799

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Yeshivos are not about producing gedolei hador. How many gedolei hador can there be at any one time? The term itself implies a limited amount. The gedolim of a generation. If there would be a thousand of them, then they wouldn’t all be gedolei hador; only the greatest among them would be.
    Yeshivos are trying to produce people who are gedolim themselves in Torah, Yir’ah, and other related midos. But not in relation to anyone else.
    Of those tens of thousands of bochurim passing through Mir, BMG, Brisk etc, most if not all have grown from the yeshiva to be gedolim, more than they would’ve had they done other things.
    This tripe about producing gedolei hador is routine talking points from the anti Bnai Torah crowd. They ant to know how many gedolim there are, make a quota system, and then send the rest to the army, to college, or wherever. Just not in the Bais Medrash. They do not understand the concept of as many people as possible, each one focused on his own personal spiritual growth more than other pursuits.
    PS: Ponevez is bigger than Brisk, perhaps Slobodka as well, although they don’t cater to the Americans nearly as much as Brisk and Mir.

    #1554824

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Besides for the practical aspects of having gone there i.e shidduchim,”

    I have NEVER heard the father of a girl in shidduchim, or a girl in shidduchim express the requirement that he chosson must have learned in brisk (im sure this is a must for real briskers, which would make it a super tiny minority of people).

    #1554821

    apushatayid
    Participant

    How many of todays “gedolei hador” learned in brisk? How many consider the brisker rav, or his sons to be their rebbe muvhak? how many bachurim who actually learned in brisk consider themselves briskers? who cares? Last I checked learning by the brisker rav, or his talmidim was not a criteria to determine ones level of lomdus, bekius, charifus or yiras shamayim.

    #1554842

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    What does that term “higher level of learning” mean?

    #1554840

    CTRebbe
    Participant

    The production of gedolei hador as a gauge of the quality of a Yeshiva would be very misleading especially since many gedolim (possibly even most) did not spend most of their learning years in Yeshiva. We might even be able to say gedolim achieved what they did despite the Yeshiva system not because of it.
    Think
    Chazon Ish
    Rav Moshe Feinstein
    Rav Elyashiv

    Of course, they had Rabbeim and did shimush by previous gedolim. But their greatness was not achieved in Yeshiva

    #1555086

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    There are a lot of colleges bigger than Harvard. Since when does that make them better?

    #1555331

    apushatayid
    Participant

    better is where you shteig the most. for some it might be brisk, for others it might be any place but brisk.

    #1555380

    apushatayid
    Participant

    my point was the applicant pool.

    #1555738

    Joseph
    Participant

    Brisk rightly has a reputation of being, lhavdil, the Jewish Harvard.

    #1555758

    Joseph, though a rather common refrain ,it’s a stretch

    Harvard does have legacies ,and endowments but for the most part it is a meritocracy
    Who gets into brisk too much venal ,capricious, blandishments,etc.
    A better comparison may be 18th century Oxford

    #1556166

    GAON
    Participant

    CT,
    “We might even be able to say gedolim achieved what they did despite the Yeshiva system not because of it.”

    How many can you count. I think the list finishes there. As all Gedolim past hundred years plus have learned in a Yeshiva, may it be Volozhin, Mir, Solobodka/Chevron, etc and later Brisk..

    I think many of the great Rosh Yeshivos in America have learnt in Brisk.

    Brisk does have something unique; they study Kodeshim, and its Gemora’s without any Rishonim and barely any Achronim. You basically learn how to study yourself from scratch. i.e. starting from the pesukim Toras Kohanim Gemorah Rambam with the full hekef..

    #1556192

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    CTRebbe: It is well known that R’ Moshe learned under R’ Isse Zalman Meltzer in Slutzk and under R’ Pesach Pruskin in Shklov and then in Amtsislav and considered R’ Pesach as his primary Rebbe.

    (see Reb Moshe, Mesorah Publications (ArtScroll series) by Rabbi Shimon Finkelman).

    In addition, where would we be without the Alter of Sladbodka in whose Yeshiva learned R’ Ahron Kotler, R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky, R’ Yitzchok Hutner, R’ Reuven Grozovsky, R’ Dovid Leibowitz, R’ Yaakov Ruderman.

    #1556300

    Ra1
    Participant

    I have read in different threads and articles of people bringing up this group the “Jerusalem Briskers”. Most of the time it has been vague references to how they pronounce certain consonants and vowels in Hebrew such as how they uniquely pronounce reish, sov, doles without dagesh, ayin, choilom and possibly komatz, kubutz, and shuruk. These threads never actually elaborated on how the Briskers actually pronounce these letters they just seem to reference them. This has led me to become curious about how they actually pronounce hebrew consonants and vowels. I always thought that all yeshivish types used the standard ashkenazi pronounciation which is basically the old Lithuanian pronounciation but with choilom instead of cheilom but it seem the Briskers may actually not use the standard yeshivish pronounciation. Can anybody please tell me if they actually do have a different pronounciation of the Hebrew letters and vowels and if so what are they? Thank you.

    #1556356

    Baerrybrisker
    Participant

    Just letting you know that if you look around to all the good mesivta and yeshiva gedolas ruba druba of the rabbeim Rosh hashivas Mashgeichem Shol umaishevs have learnt in brisk ….there is a reason why

    #1556361

    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Brisk learns Kodshim.

    #1556519

    apushatayid
    Participant

    So they learned in brisk for a year or 2. they also learned in the Mir, BMG and other Yeshivos too.

    #1556553

    Baerrybrisker,
    What came really first, the chicken or the egg??

    Second ,Assuredly most Mashgichim
    did Not learn in brisk

    #1556556

    continued..
    And virtually for any who did ,they’re making fraudulent usage of the title

    #1556581

    baishatalmuder
    Participant

    Did anyone posting on this thread learn in Brisk. Brisk was not even an official yeshiva when the Brisker Rov and Reb Berel were the roshie yeshiva. The whole “going to Brisk” was to hear the shiur. And this is still what Brisk is about. People do not go there to hear what the people in bais medrash say, they go there to hear the shiur. And what is special about the shiur is the way in which they speak. Reb Chaim said that if something is missing in the hasbarah this means something is missing in the havnah. So what people get from the shiur is they learn how to speak precisely, measured and clearly. The shuir was what the purpose that bochurim went to Brisk going back to the Mirrer bochurim in Europe.

    #1556669

    GAON
    Participant

    BH,

    “Reb Berel were the roshie yeshiva”

    While you are somehow correct about Brisker Rav in Brisk, but in Jerusalem he had what we call “Talmidim” that is more than just passing thru a Yeshiva, those are truly talmidim in all aspects of life, not ONLY how to deliver a shiur, they were molded by Brisker Rav how to think and learn in all aspects of yehadus, halcha, and learning.

    Mainly, as the Brisker rav would repeat in the name of Rav Chaim (who told it to Rav Baruch Ber): Vos NIT Tzu Zugen”/ what NOT to say”!

    Rav Berel had a full fledged Yeshiva when he passed away, in fact, many (or most) of today’s older Rosh Yeshivos of America learnt by him..

    #1557080

    Toi
    Participant

    The Rov had talmidim in Europe, too.

    #1557243

    GAON
    Participant

    Toi,

    agreed, but somehow the Talmidim in Jerusalem were Talmidim that we would call “Briskers”, I don’t think that was the case in Brisk as much as in Yerushalayim. Many just came to hear a shiur, like Rav Leib Malin etc..

    #1557443

    ” truly talmidim in all aspects of life,”
    they have at least convinced themselves of it

    There is nuance which everyone as expected misses.But let sleeping dogs lie..

    #1557489

    GAON
    Participant

    “they have at least convinced themselves of it”

    The fact that there are some who do is not the discussion here. The OP asked why is it diff, and the answer waw given. Asides that you are incorrect, there are many Talmidim who came to the Rav or Rav Berel and they completely changed their derech halimud, and they were mekabel as rav haMuvhak. However, the fact that many don’t shouldn’t be any diff of what it say. אחת מאלף יצא…

    #1557591

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Ahhh I’m starting to see what’s going on here. This is a thread for jealous whiners who weren’t good enough to get into Brisk.

    #1557606

    Neville
    Nah,though there were several other threads it would seem for those

    #1557626

    Toi,etc.
    One is left to ponder:
    What is a talmid

    #1557740

    YosefSebrow
    Participant

    When it comes to Brisk, we need to make Brisker chilukim and be me’ayein into the sugya. A few basic questions:
    1. When one learns in the yeshiva but doesn’t go to shiur, is he a Brisker? Also, If you go to Brisk for a year but never have a rebbe long enough to be a rebbe muvhak, did Brisk really shaff a chalois lomdus for you, or was it just legabey shidduchim?
    2. Reb Avraham Yehoshua shlit”a is the son of Reb Berel. also, it’s yadua he’s saying over his father’s teyrah. So why, if Reb Meshulam Dovid is the actual son of Reb Velverl, is the velt more machshiv Reb Avraham Yehoshua’s yeshiva? Bishlama when Reb Berel was alive, but now why? Is it a din in the actual yeshiva being better or is it a din in dimyoinois havelt?

    Once we answer these questions, we’ll get a better understanding of Brisk and does it deserve the mystique.

    I have heard both ways from 2 different people who went to Reb Avraham Yehoshua’s. So it could be it’s talui on the gavra, but it’s not a vadai. One person who went there was a big lamdan before he went, but told me it taught him how to read a piece of gemara and break it down. This person takke married a good shidduch after passing the shver’s farher. Another person who went there told me most people never go into shiur and learn there on their own. So oyb azoi it’s hard to see how Brisk would shaff a chalois to make them worth more on the shidduchim market.
    I never did Brisk, but from reading through Reb Chaim and spending solid hours on it on nights and weekends in order to write my balabatish notes on it, I can testify that the hours spent have changed my way of looking at things. That’s just from a sefer without a rebbe.
    zeittige shailos to be asked would be a bout the 3rd tier, Reb Tzvi’s and Reb Sholom Shechter, and what other yeshivas would be in that tier.

    Ubber soif kol soif the ikker is lernen. If your yeshiva teaches you how to learn and to not varf tipshus, it’s a good yeshiva, whether or not it has the mystique and aura of Brisk.

    #1557763

    Toi
    Participant

    Most normal people who learnt in Brisk would define talmid solely based on learning; how to approach, tear down, and build the sugya, and perhaps, certain elements of the ‘brisker’ hashkafa. The people who think talmid means taking on the kooky brisker chumros and wacko hanhagos are just that- kooky wackos. They tend to be, by and large, american baal tshuva flipouts.

    #1557785

    jdb
    Participant

    We have bochrim from many yeshivos, including Brisk, over for shabbos. Some become regulars. My wife and I get calls about them. As such, I can tell you that where the guy is learning is less important than how serious he is in his learning and even more important is his middos. The shidduch referral very much varries by the character of the guy, far more so than his pedigree.

    This comment is not meant to speak about Brisk, but the idea of elitism overall.

    There are a couple of elite yeshivos where there is noone being madrich the bochurim. These guys think they are above it all. They call last minute to come for a shabbos, and brag about terrible middos. One group of guys spent an entire seudah sharing stories about how they abuse their mentally handicapped cleaning guy.

    In contrast, we have had guys over from less elite yeshivos who had stellar middos. Who sang zemiros, came with a present for the family (even a bag of gummies for the kids counts), helped clean the table, shared divray torah etc.

    To this who know what matters, look for a bochur who has what matters. A brilliant lamdan with terrible middos will make a poor husband and father, not to mention a weak Rosh Yeshiva.

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