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we all have to know that this all has nothing to do with how meny dates and so on this is a thing that every community has a diffrent way and there is no right way every one does what hius olem does.we all have tyo try to be are best and hope that it works out.
The court hears all sides of an argument and does not assume a gender bias in the decision process. There are women who for legitimate reasons lose their cases. Feminist conspiracy is utter nonsense.
Abuse in the frum community is a very real concern. Victims of abuse lose their sense of self and can’t fight back. Therefore when the partner experiences abuse they are powerless to protect their own children as well. The abused partner sees their child being abused but does nothing to stop the abuse.
It is therefore advisable in situations of pervasive patterns of abuse (as opposed to a once in twenty years explosion) that the marriage end. IT IS IN THE CHILD’S BEST INTEREST AS WELL. Children who experienced abuse end up angry at both the abuser and the abused parent who stood there and watched the child be abused and did NOTHING. Even if the marriage ends after 30 years, the child was still not cared for during their time of need.
PLEASE, if you find out after engagement about patterns of abuse in the family (discussions about changing your weight, looks, dress, threats, etc.), BREAK YOUR ENGAGEMENT. Do it for your own sake and for the sake of the children who you will put into such an environment. UNLESS…your chosson/kallah demonstrates actions consistent with breaking away from the patterns of abuse.
Broken engagements are 1,000,000 times better than broken marriages.
I answered artchills post (the first part which is wrong) in the Feminism thread.
Artchill, thank you for being a voice of reason.
I just read an interesting article in the New York Times. In Sweden, giving men paternity leave (and 80% of them taking it) has lowered their divorce rate.
I thank H-sh-m for giving me the intelligence to be a voice of reason.
SJS, I think these articles are purely based on speculation.
I just want to point out that women can be abusers too.
In addition, abusers don’t have to be mean, prone to anger or have outright bad middos.
Abuse can be very subtle and the effects in such cases can be even more devastating because the victim is confused, especially if the victim is a child.
Abusers can be charming, say that the abusive action that they are taking is simply because they love the victim and are doing whatever abuse they are (which of course the abuser will not see it as such) for the victim’s benefit. In such cases the victim becomes confused. On one hand, abusive actions hurt but on the other hand it is done in such a subtle and manipulative way that it leaves the victim onfused and they assume that they are blameworthy of the abusers disdain and sarcasm towards them or the guilty party who caused the abuser to become angry when they do blow up.
Nobody should EVER stay in such a marriage as it will have terrible lasting effects for generations. These abusers CANNOT CHANGE THEMSELVES. I know what I’m talking about. I grew up in an abusive home and I know these people are SICK. Anybody trying to control another human, be it their husband, wife or kids is SICK.
Not only was one of my parents an abuser, but one of my granparents was extremely abusive as well. I cannot tell you the devastating effect it had on each family member including the grandchildren. I thank Hashem for giving me my sanity for my life was insane and I have seen people in my situation become either abusers themselves or pathetic, broken individuals.
Despite knowing the pain of abuse and despite knowing that abuse exists in our communities, I still think that in today’s generation of instant gratification, except in cases where abuse was the issue, broken engagements and divorces could’ve been avoided in a lot of cases.
why is it that the ultrafrum dont need any dates. and many of those couples are successful?
Haros- its not “ultrafrum”. It’s the entire chassidish world and they mostly have great marriages.
just to set one thing straight – it’s not only the chaddishe velt, it’s also the ‘ultra-yeshivish,’ especially in eretz yisrael. i’m not chassidish but in my circles, three is the norm.
Why do they need less dates? They have a different concept of the base of a marriage.
I needed to marry someone I loved and knew very well. I couldn’t marry a stranger.
They want to marry someone who fits their criteria that they get along with. Then they build their base.
Neither is better or worse, just different.
Hereorthere, who call you a voice of reason?
Clearheaded, maybe, but I would bet there is something to it. I think involved fathers (in addition to mothers) help family dynamic. Families that eat together generally have less problems than those that don’t.
SJSinNYCb who calls someone who makes false claims about what I said a voice of reason?
Fathers can’t be with their kids when mothers lie that the father was ‘abusing them’ when he never did that.
BS”D:
An additional point:
I have a friend whose son refuses to go out on dates. He is mid 20’s, and has seen at least four of his friends get divorced within a year of getting married.
Is it possible the shidduch crisis is causing more divorces, and the pressure to “get married” is making people pick the wrong one?
Just a thought.
Haros: Chassidish couples have no expectations from their spouses, and (due to the genders being completely seperate and information sheltering) don’t really care even about some of the items on SJS’s list. Why do you think there has to be a “Shalom Task Force” to educate women that spousal abuse is unacceptable? These women MAY very well think it is the norm! And since the stigma is so great, and they know they can’t survive without communal support (no education etc.), they have no choice but to think everything is good.
What did artchill say that was false?
Yes I think he is a voice a reason to tell people if you are in an abusive relationship, get out. If you see abusive tendencies in your fiance, leave so you don’t have to find out.
If you are self proclaiming yourself a voice of reason that’s fine. I don’t agree but you can call yourself whatever you want.
gavra, I’m not sure whether you are correct or incorrect regarding the reasons you attribute to Chasidish marriages (actually you are at least partially incorrect as Chasidishe couples do have expectations from their spouses, and they do NOT think abuse is the norm; aside from it being rare, I think its clear you don’t have much first hand experiance with Chasidishe marriages and what makes them tick), but I do know that the reasons they think “everything is good” is NOT for the reasons you attribute but rather because by and large everything generally IS good. Yes, they have simpler expectations, but that is a GOOD thing.
so right: Different expectations. I just hear the “bad” stuff regarding what goes on in NYC when the “Viber” are up in the mountains.
I am willing to learn. What makes a chassidish marriage tick?
I had assumed it was children (lots) and in many cases (both in USA & EY) Gov. benefits and community support (I personally have no problem with that).
Please prove me wrong. But bring hard facts.
gavra, why is it fair for you to insist on hard facts, after you were just moida you based your assumptions on… assumptions, hearsay and veibel speak? (Anyways, why would you even be mekabel such bad stuff?)
Yes the children make a chassidish marriage tick. The ahava. The Avodas Hashem. There are so many things. Gov’t benefits is not one of them though. Community support is.
SJS, thanks for the compliment.
gavra, as a Chassidishe woman, I can definitely attest that what you are saying is not true.
No human being can exist as a normal person in an abusive environment. A generation ago, a person in an abusive marriage did not divore, but today, in most frum communities, sooner or later these marriages dissolve. Even in Yeshivishe communities it takes time for some to realize that they are in an abusive relationship. It’s not that simple for anyone, especially a woman to end an abusive relationship regardless from which community they are. Chassidishe are not more abused than non-Chassidish – that is a patently false allegation. These things happen in all communities and some recognize the abusive behaviour right away. For others there’s shock or the convincing of oneself that with time or the right intervention, it will work out, hence the prolongation of such a marriage. Such reasoning takes place in the Yishivishe world as well.
I happen to think that Chassidishe women are, in most cases, extremely respected by their husbands and vice versa.
Now in the Chassidshe world you have all types, however in general most Chassidim do have less expectations of what they want in a marriage. However, that is not necessarily a bad thing. That is why there is less divorce in the Chassidishe world.
The fact is, that some people, especially women get discouraged when they realize they will not get the love or closeness from their spouse, that they envisioned. In addition men and women are inherintly different and it takes some time to acclimate to each other as a couple. Now in the Chassidishe world, as the bar of expectations in marriage is lower, there is less room to feel resentful if the spouse is not fulfilling those expectations.
Actually, does the Torah not state that if the husband finds something unseemly in his wife he should give her a GET? And if she remarries, and her second husband hates her and divorces her, she cannot be re-married to the first husband. Check out Devarim Perek 24, Pesukim Aleph and Gimmel.
oomis, I feel this is important issue that necessitates an answer. Unseemly does not translate into unloved. One cannot live with a spouse that nausiates them, this is probably talking about unhygienic habits that a wife has. I mean you do have to live with a spouse after all. In any case, it doesn’t talk about love.
Hate also can be caused by a variety of reasons, notably a schlechta, mean, selfish wife. Nowhere does it say if one doesn’t love a wife, or vice versa for that matter, they can divorce.
Love in the way it’s thought of today as an instant soul connection between two people is elusive for most people. Can everybody be a billionaire? Is everyone drop dead gorgeous? The key to happiness in marriage AND in life is being satisfied with what we have, including our spouses.
clearheaded: I’m not about to argue with a real “chassidish woman”, but explain to me why there is a “Shalom Task Force”, when it should be obvious (same for the more right/less worldly “yeshivish” world). Otherwise I agree with what you say. B”H women are able to get out of a bad relationship.
so right: Not Mekabel, Choshesh. I find it wierd that if there was a gezairah from the Gov’t that there had to bungalows and men had to be in the city without their wives for two months the gedoilim would Shrei about family and husbands & wives without each other, but some of us do so willingly.
In order for you to convince me, I would like to see proof. I am not attempting to convince you (I have found almost everyone here is not interested, anyway). That is why the word ‘MAY” is capitalized. It is a theory, and clearheaded agrees partially as far as lower expectations.
As far as Gov’t funding, I see the collectors in Shul and at my door. I also see the statistics for communities such as (An unnamed town of Chassidim) and Gov’t funding. If this is an abberation, I would expect proof.
Of course by and large everything is good, but I would think that is true in all “torah” communities. The question posed is why there is less divorce among one type of torah community, and I posited that the expectations of marriage are different (perhaps the chassidim are more “torah true”, I’m not saying its worse, just different). So far I have not been told or proven otherwise.
clearheaded, I completely agree with you. It is also important to acknowledge that the reasons under halacha that it is permissible for a husband to give a get are very different than the reasons under halacha that a wife can insist on one.
Gavra- are you for real? Do you really think that chassidishe pple live in a different world where they don’t know abuse exists?
The reason why chassidishe marriages work is because they get to love, respect, and appreciate their spouses AFTER THEY GET MARRIED. The bond they form after marriage CANNOT be formed prior to marriage even if you date for years. They have real love for their spouse WITHOUT ANY REASON to it. Not because of looks.(Obviously as long as they look decent!)
They appreciate their spouses for their special traits which they inquire about b4 the shidduch.
Chassidish men and woman have the same desires in marriage and love as others do, and their marriages are based on that.
They learn to be happy(really happy) without going out for suppers and vacationing every now and then.
They don’t stay in a marriage if they’re not happy, besides if there’s kids and they decide to bare with it. They DO have divorces you understand.
Chassidish pple are JUST LIKE YOU but with a different lifestyle.
I’m not about to argue with a real “chassidish woman”, but explain to me why there is a “Shalom Task Force”, when it should be obvious (same for the more right/less worldly “yeshivish” world). Otherwise I agree with what you say. B”H women are able to get out of a bad relationship.
gavra, I have spoken about that very clearly in my post. Here’s what I wrote:
It’s not that simple for anyone, especially a woman to end an abusive relationship regardless from which community they are… These things happen in all communities and some recognize the abusive behaviour right away. For others there’s shock or the convincing of oneself that with time or the right intervention, it will work out, hence the prolongation of such a marriage.
I will not elaborate on this topic simply because people cannot really comprehend why some people need encouragement and help in ending an abusive relationship.
The question posed is why there is less divorce among one type of torah community, and I posited that the expectations of marriage are different (perhaps the chassidim are more “torah true”, I’m not saying its worse, just different). So far I have not been told or proven otherwise.
That is a true statement. I have written about that in my post.
I just want to make it clear what I’ve written. With writing about less expectations of marriage in the Chassidishe world I don’t mean less than regular marital expectations of honesty, reliability,respect and compromise. Such a marriage culminates over the years into a different kind of love that very impatient young kids need instantly!
Clearheaded: Thank you. I hope you don’t mind if I look at you as an expert, so that you can guide me in these matters.
smartcookie: As I have stated, I don’t know much about that part of the torah world. I just know what I can see, and what others tell me. If there is no divorce in the Chassidish circles, then there are abusive relationships. I see Shalom Task Force, but Clearheaded has a good point (about remaining in an abusive relationship for “love”, “children”, “family”, etc. when all would really be much better if they just got out). Clearheaded tells me that divorce is accepted for abuse, unfaithfulness, etc. (SJS’s 4 points earlier). You state:
“They don’t stay in a marriage if they’re not happy”
Others before you (E.G. Kasha) disagree. Before I can know why there is/isn’t a similar divorce problem, and if there is anything that can be adapted, I first need some facts, please?
I still think the yeshivish world is for the reasons I said above, but am unsure if there is the same divorce factor in the chassidish world. If I am correct that the divorces we see are an outcome of the Shidduch Crisis and the obsession over Gelt, then the Chassidim will (Bezras Hashem) avoid this problem.
Clearheaded seems to have these facts, so I await her ideas on how she would help prevent broken engagements/divorces.
Gavra-btw- Chassidim aren’t one group. Its rather a stereotype.
Within Chassidish circles, you have so many different people.
Some of them are just like litvish people but they’re dressed in a different levush. Some of them are perhaps slightly different with their lifestyles too. And yes, they have some fanatics but the outside world has fanatics too.
You have a very negative picture about “chassidim”.
Go out and meet some of them.
clearheaded, if a husband can divorce her wife for burning the cholent, that is pretty straightforward. If two people cannot live together in a happy and joyful way, that is not such a good role model of marriage for their children, either. Unlike the Catholic world, Hashem allowed for the dissolution of a marriage. Truthfully, I would never want to continue being married to the type of man who would frivolously divorce me, anyway.
Gavra, I’m not understanding. Do you seriously believe that there are no divorces by Chassidim? There are hundreds if not thousands.
Chassidim leave their spouses for the same reasons others do, but it happens less.
I don’t know the reason for that statistic, but I believe it’s because when looking for a shidduch, we concentrate so much on the INNER person and make sure he’s right for me. Looks only comes AFTER that. Is that perhaps why Chassidim have less divorces?
But definitely not because they stay in abusive marriages.
ABSOLUTELY NOT.
I don’t know who tells such things to you but they’re outright false statements.
Please go learn the facts.
Smartcookie, are you saying that non Chassidim divorce over narcissistic reasons?
I think the difference is really what we want in marriage. Non chassidim are more prone to want everlasting love. Chassidim are more prone to want a good husband/father that they get along well with.
SmartCookie-
100% correct. The Chassidim I see are the ones that come collecting for their daughter’s wedding and to buy the couple an apartment, or so that they can support their son-in-law in Kollel. It rubs off on me the wrong way. The Chassidim that I meet are not the ones that you would want me to meet!
I’m sure its not all that bad. After all, Chabad is a Chassidus, and they do a nice job, sending out Shluchim and the sort. B&H is a big store in NYC run by Chassidim.
Then again, the town I mentioned before is mostly on support, as well as those on MOFES in NYC (Williamsburg & BP).
I wonder what the percentages are? Anyone with any stats on Chassidim, Yeshivish, etc. on Tzedaka or gov’t support? It seems like an awful lot. But then again, I don’t see those who DON’T need the money & don’t come to my door or my shul.
As a final point: I remember hearing a story about (IIRC) Rav Schwab how people were bemoaning to him about the frum people caught stealing, etc. He replied to them that if they would have been eating Pork, they would not be called Frum, so why if they steal, you do call them Frum? They’re not frum!
I would guess the same idea applies here. Those who expect to live off of Tzedaka would not be called frum, let alone Chassidim (a term which the Gemarah reserves for two Tannayim alone!).
May we all be Zoche to Ahavas Chinam.
SJSinNYC, Do you know that as a fact?
smartcookie: Kasha before seemed to infer that Chassidim (groups?) have way fewer, if any divorces in their circles due to the extreme stigma of being divorced.
Why do I think you are talking about two different groups?
gavra, no one “expects to live off of Tzedaka”; you think the poor who come collecting for food or to marry off their children (hachnossos kallah is a tremendous mitzvah itself on top of tzedaka) WANT to embarass themselves by begging? They unfortunately are in that position. Hashem makes sure every generation has its poor, so the non-poor can have the tremendous zechus of supporting the poor.
Would you like to trade places with them? You beg and they will give you tzedaka??
SjS- no, Chassidim divorce for normal reasons like anybody else would.
And I’m trying to understand, you’re saying that they have lasting marriages because they’re looking for:
A good husband
A good father
Someone they get along with
What else would ANYONE want in marriage? These 3 things include it all! (Besides looks).
Someone that’s a good husband includes good middos and loving/taking care of your wife(bec its the only way you can be a good husband).
Plus you get along with him!
What else do you have in mind besides all of this?
Gavra- while many in BP and Willi are on govt programs, I don’t know the reason for that.
But I do know that THAT IS THE REASON why pple look at Chassidim so negatively.
I think it stems from not going to college so they can’t find decent jobs.
Well, I don’t like this fact either but I’m happy I don’t live on govt programs and can afford my life expenses B”H.
About kasha’s comment- I don’t know where he/she takes it from that there are no divorces by Chassidim. It is FALSE.
There’s nothing wrong if someone divorces, as long as there was a valid reason for it. No stigma involved.
so right: That is something I am sure you are so wrong (pun intended). Many people in this day and age (sadly) live a life expecting things from others (of course, excepting the attempts to wim the lottery).
And yes, It is all b’Yad Hashem, but as I have posted earlier from Rav Wolfson, Hashem helps those who help themselves.
EDITED
Smartcookie, a good husband, a good father and someone I get along with isn’t enough for me. That’s a good friend or good roomate with biological ties.
I wanted to marry someone I loved (in addition to someone who would be a good husband, father and get along with) , not someone I liked enough to live with. So that’s what I did.
My expectations of my husband were slightly different.
gavra, so are you accusing the Aniyim of Klal Yisroel from doros and doros of not “helping themselves”? Its the poor’s fault for being poor?
Hashem decreed there will be poor in every generation.
SjS- so were mine. Part of my expectation for a good husband is someone I absolutely love. Otherwise I wouldn’t be able to live with him. Depends what you consider as part of a good husband!
But the difference in the Chassidishe world is, that they get to love each others(and that means genuine love in most cases).
So right – huh? Haven’t you heard of Hishtadlus?
EDITED
Smartcookie, a good husband, a good father and someone I get along with isn’t enough for me. That’s a good friend or good roomate with biological ties.
I wanted to marry someone I loved
I had more to add to that. In addition to a good wife, mother and someone I get along with (and loved — that was important to me too), there was also the issue of whether or not we agreed on certain basic hashkafic principles.
While there are some hashkafic principles where it’s not as important that we agree (Eeees and I don’t agree on everything hashkafically), there are others items that are very vital and disagreement on these matters would probably have precluded us from residing together peacefully as a married couple.
The Wolf
SJSinNYC you are right is was NOT Artchill who falsly said about me;
“Aside from your outlandish and ignorant claims that women and some men too never face any form of spousal abuse,”
So are you going to say the onee who said THAT is not a voice of reason or try and get out of talking about, THAT?
As far as anyone saying anything about themselves or about others, those who support similar ideas will support each other, that does not PROVE that in the Beis Din Shel mila they will be found to be ‘one voice of reason’ out of everyone else.
Gavra-btw- Chassidim aren’t one group. Its rather a stereotype.
Within Chassidish circles, you have so many different people.
Exactly. Each Chassidus and neutral Chassidim are different from each other and the place from where a Chassidishe person hails also has a major impact on what type of Chassid they are.
gavra, Correct me if I’m wrong, as far as I know, a lot of young Yeshivish couples are on MOFES as well. Now would it be right if I say ALL Yeshivishe people take MOFES? I think that that’s unfair. I do not take any MOFES. In fact I only know one freind from all my Chassidishe freinds that take MOFES. And there are no statistics to prove that Chassidim in any community are mostly on MOFES. I think we must rely on facts not on hearsay.
Clearheaded seems to have these facts, so I await her ideas on how she would help prevent broken engagements/divorces.
As a graduate of YWNCR University I am considered one of the top experts in marriage counseling and therefore I charge accordingly for my advice. My fee is $400 an hour.
Smartcookie, I needed that before marriage. I don’t believe you can really love someone after 2-3 beshows.
Wolf, hashkafa was also somewhat important but my husband was more right wing than I was, but we fell in love and wanted to make it work. So we did.
SjS- that’s fine with me. But that doesn’t mean that Chassidish couples can’t get to love each other, like you love your husband, after their marriage.
“In addition to a good wife, mother and someone I get along with (and loved — that was important to me too), “
Love comes after marriage. The torah says yitzchak loved Rifka only after marriage not before. And the whole idea of being “in love” with yoru wife is silly, goyish and not rooted in teh torah. Your wife should be yoru partner and your helper and your ezer knegdo. Shes not there for romance.
Smartcookie, I agree with that.
mosherose, the torah also says that Yaakov loved Rachel before he married her.
not like what wolf means. that was a spirtual love. How can you say that Yakov “loved” Rachel before marriage like a girlfriend?
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