January 12, 2011 4:36 am at 4:36 am #594143
what makes a home considered a broken home? how come if a girl is completely healthy and stable she could b considered second class if her parents are divorced?January 12, 2011 5:19 am at 5:19 am #727563popa_bar_abbaParticipant
You are asking two questions.
what makes a home considered a broken home?
Standard definition is probably that the two parents are alive but not living together,
how come if a girl is completely healthy and stable she could b considered second class if her parents are divorced?
There is a thinking that people learn how to interact with their spouse from their parents.January 12, 2011 5:19 am at 5:19 am #727564oomisParticipant
A broken home is one in which the parents no longer live in it together. they could be divorced or only separated, but if mother and father choose to live apart from each other, the home is broken.
A girl or boy from such a home is not considered “second class” as you put it, BUT that being said, many people are leery of shidduchim where the boy or girl may have observed some very unpleasant interactions between the parents, as they were growing up, which could impact on their ideas of how home life should be conducted.January 12, 2011 5:23 am at 5:23 am #727565
bjj, How do you find it affecting you?January 12, 2011 5:32 am at 5:32 am #727566williMember
I.M.E. Broken home is usually a layman’s term as in divorced or separated parents when describing the children’s background.
Nowadays they use the word “dysfunctional” which basically includes any kind of unhealthiness, whether the parents are together or not. Can refer to abuse going on, neglect, or just “tzifoorenkeit”.
Now about the second class issue – that is unfortunately a result of stigmas in some communities that are absolutely no fault of the children of course. My view on why this happened is that When people used to hide most things deemed “imperfect” on the street, (special needs children, disease, mental illness, etc.) the blemishes that were obvious to the public appeared worse in their eyes (due to the denial factor) & shunned even more.January 12, 2011 5:41 am at 5:41 am #727567aries2756Participant
BJJkid, all I can say is B”H and I am going to say it again B”H that you are so normal and that you don’t get all the things that are so common amongst kids in your situation. YOU have amazing parents, parents who obviously understood their obligations to their kids and who obviously love their kids way more than they love themselves.
Believe it or not, other parents are not so considerate of their children and are more interested in doing what’s good for them. Really, it makes no sense and it sounds really selfish but kids really get hurt and really carry a lot of baggage because their homes, families and basically lives are ripped apart because of parents who don’t act in the best interests of the children. If you ever have the opportunity please than your parents from me and others who advocate for kids.January 12, 2011 6:12 am at 6:12 am #727568
IDK, its just confusing to me, y would u not look at the person and instead look at the parents situation in shiddichum? im not trying to sound like a balas gayvah or a/t but BH i am VERY happy, healthy and ttly NORMAL!! i have no “baggage” to speak of, if anything u could say i already learnt from very early on how to deal with a “mother in law” and i BH have a very warm relationship with my step mother…the only thing that i could think would b able to b a p’gam would b the fact that i would have to visit both my father and mother, for some reason i dont get the feeling that its that reason that bochurim refuse to give me a try….my brothers, parents and of course me myself are not interested in settling, is there a reason why i should not b zoche to as chosshuva a shidduch as all my cousins just because my parents, who are both raising BEAUTIFUL, TOIRATIK homes are not living together??January 12, 2011 6:53 am at 6:53 am #727569
BJJ, there are many nice guys who come from a similar background, they will understand where you come from, appreciate you for who you are and you will support each other. Dont chase those who are not interested. Similarities in background work very well. Hatzlacha!!January 12, 2011 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #727570eclipseMember
bjj:People get hung up on things…but Hashem is not “thrown” by anything that happened to you.
And He is in the process of creating experiences in your future chosson’s life–
which is turning him into the best husband for you.
Never forget that,it’s the best comfort of all.January 12, 2011 2:20 pm at 2:20 pm #727571SJSinNYCMember
bjjkid, different people react to divorce differently. Sometimes, there are issues relating to it. Its why people are cautious.
Then again, my father died when I was young so I had a “different” package.
Each person has different baggage. The shidduch system doesn’t really allow for this.January 12, 2011 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #727572tzippiMember
bjjkid, here’s my take on it: when my oldest started shidduchim we realized we had to figure out what our approach would be to a shidduch with a divorced family. We decided that if it was difficult matzav – triangulation, abuse, e.g., far beyond the tough time while breaking up and adjusting – the younger the child was, the more likely we would be not to consider it. There is so much stress on a young couple we wouldn’t add to it. However, if the parents were mentschen, if they had their acts together to work in the best interests of the kids, and if the kid was well adjusted, no reason not to go ahead if all else checked out.
This last bit is important. Honestly, most people will have baggage. The question is, is it carry on, or seriously overweight? If the latter, sorry, the shidduch’s a no-go, however old the kids are. If the child’s well adjusted, but the family matzav is complicated, then an older single can decide, with our input, how much she can handle and if this is something worth pursuing.
No one should say that you should limit yourself to someone with an identical background. BUT it is very possible that your experience has given you extra depth and you might do well with someone who has his own story that transformed him. So don’t think right away that if someone’s suggesting someone for you who’s a bit off the beaten track that you’re both damaged goods.
OTOH, it is entirely possible for you to marry someone from a conventional background and stable family. I know for a fact that these shidduchim can happen. And BTW, we all know of so-called “nuclear” families that are downright nucular and ready to ex- or implode at anytime.
I think you’re getting a lot of good input here and food for thought. Take your time digesting!January 12, 2011 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #727573gavra_at_workParticipant
A Broken Home:
I saw one of these in Har Nof, once. The foundation was cracked, literally.
Kid: Good luck, you will need it. Why start with issues when there are 20 other girls who don’t have them?
If I were you, I would specificly go out with those who are from divorced homes, so that they and you both know it is not an issue.January 12, 2011 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #727574popa_bar_abbaParticipant
You are very correct.
My first post was intended to answer why the bias exists. However, it is certainly true that the bias is unfair, and not even justified.
There are too many factors which go into people’s development to focus on just one and declare it dispositive. Children from whole families often have very difficult issues.
Additionally, nobody knows what happens inside the house. Imagine a couple who have a really bad marriage. If they divorce, their children will be “tainted”. If they stay married, their children will not be tainted- but will likely be exposed to far worse.
Maybe it is better to marry someone who wears the background on their sleeve, instead of finding buried issues later. I think it is probably easier to deal with what you know.January 12, 2011 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #727575mewhoParticipant
there is bias about anything and everything. if you wear a knit yamulka there is bias, if you wear a jean skirt ess past nisht and so on.
we should all be more accepting of each other. the midos should count more than the clothesJanuary 12, 2011 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #727576
“my brothers, parents and of course me myself are not interested in settling”
I’m going to be brutally honest for a minute because I think you can handle it. While you feel like you dont want to settle, others dont either. To some, settling is a child from a “broken” home. You dont have to settle and you shouldnt, but understand that other dont want to either. Those who have a problem with your situation are clearly not for you, be thankful that Hash-m is weeding them out for you.January 12, 2011 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #727577memoMember
BJJ; IY”H you’ll meet your chosson b’karov…I know of many couple who got married (from broken married to from not broken homes)
Some mothers will look past your background and look at you! others wont,they’re not for you! Also the way your family as a whole appears to the community as a functioning cohesive wholesome no baggage family–even if it is so called broken there are many families that will look into you…
nowadays with unfortantly divorces rampant the probability of marrying someone from a broken home is so much greater…
Also when speaking to people who set you up emphasis that your family is a cohesive well adjusted family!
Hatzlacha!!!!!!!!January 12, 2011 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #727578eclipseMember
Popa is right.A kid from a home where the parents SHOULD have gotten divorced is not better off,psychologically.
As far as settling,it does not have to be a “settling” that affects your marriage any more than where the guy went to school.
Meaning,everything affects a marriage,but not everything RUINS it.
My parents had to get divorced.
Not one of us married into “broken homes”.
Hashem managed!January 12, 2011 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #727579ha ha ha haMember
BJJ I don’t want to come out to hard on you but what do you call settling?? To go out with a boy from the same backround as you?? It seems to me you are implying that you don’t want to go out with a boy from a divorced family isn’t your question a little ironic?!?!? and from what i understand your labling yourself more them others are labling you!! You sound like an amazing person with a lot to offer move on in life and don’t dwell on your parents marital situation!! Hatzlocha!!January 12, 2011 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #727581
“but what do you call settling?? To go out with a boy from the same backround as you??” how about to go out with bochurim who they themselves have been married and divorced, is that fair? i dont think there is a/t wrong with the bochur per say, but i dont think it is fair to say that since my parents marriage did not work out i have to marry a bochur who has been married previously, and may even have kids….January 12, 2011 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #727582williMember
Bjjkid as long as you’re confident with what you want, just stick to your guns. I also had people redding me things that were so off the mark – I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. (for ex a guy 10-15 yrs my senior or someone w/ kids when I’m really young without children. Or borderline slow. Or Bums. etc. This would mainly come from people who didn’t know me or barely knew me. (Or no sechel) I’d be like “huh? you know who I am and what a good catch I am?” But I learned not to take it to heart. If you have a lot to offer yourself, somebody out there will appreciate that and don’t settle for less than you deserve. Hatzlacha!January 12, 2011 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #727583
Take it from someone who’s seen 40+ years of living; 99% of people have “baggage”. Some have health issues they are hiding, some have family members that are off tune, some have character traits that would sink the QE2, were they to come to the public eye.
Just be yourself and let your bashert find you. AND NEVER SETTLE! When the right one comes along, none of this will matter. I may not win any awards for looks, nor be guest of honor at a gala dinner, nor even have a parking permit to let me pull into a bus stop. But to my friends / family? I’m 24kt gold.
Think of yourself (and your future chosson) the same way, and you’ll be pleasantly surprised.January 12, 2011 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #727584artchillParticipant
KID sounds like you are a younger BJJ graduate. Obviously you likely won’t consider an already divorced man as a spouse.
However if you are 27-31 year old KID, it might be worth your while to check into. This won’t be called settling because after a certain age that’s pretty much all that’s left.January 12, 2011 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #727585
artchill, yes if i was 27-31 i would agree with you, however i am not yet 20 years old!!!January 12, 2011 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #727587ha ha ha haMember
BJJ a lot of “helpful” ppl suggest interesting stuff just hold your horses there is someone out there that is perfect for you!!!January 12, 2011 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #727588
“however i am not yet 20 years old!!!”
Then please, calm down.January 12, 2011 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #727589
sacrilege, i am very calm and not worried in the least, however i am a little offended at the “shiddichum” that are being retd,,,,January 12, 2011 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #727590gavra_at_workParticipant
Kid: Good luck, you will need it. Why start with issues when there are 20 other girls who don’t have them?
I assume you are looking for a Lakewood guy (type)?
Go for someone like yourself, with “baggage” that is not baggage.January 12, 2011 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #727591WolfishMusingsParticipant
FWIW, IMHO, if someone is rejecting you for things that are out of your control, you’re probably better off without them anyway.
My parents are divorced. While I did not go the “traditional” shidduch dating route, my sister did. She ended up marrying a very nice guy from a well-known family and they are still happily married now. Were there some guys who looked down on her because her parents weren’t married (and worse, her father wasn’t frum)? Perhaps there were – but she was far better off without those people.
My rule is this: something that is beyond your control should not be used as the sole reason to say no (or yes, for that matter).
I know it may not seem like it now, but trust me — if someone says no to you solely because your parents are divorced, without even bothering to consider what type of person you are — then you’ve managed to avoid a bullet.
The WolfJanuary 12, 2011 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #727592WolfishMusingsParticipant
Just to elaborate one more point on my last post:
You may or may not consider your background situation to be “baggage,” but, for the sake of argument, let’s say that it is.
Fine, so you have some minor baggage.
Those people that are going to reject you out of hand for your “baggage” without even looking at the type of person that you are has baggage of a far worse sort — closemindedness. I’d take someone with your “baggage” over that any day of the week. At least your “baggage” isn’t internal to you and in your power to change. They, however, are *choosing* to be closeminded and elitist.
Again, as I said, it may not seem this way to you know, but take my word — you’re far better off without that baggage.
The WolfJanuary 12, 2011 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #727593AZParticipant
Sac: can you believe i actually agree with everything you wrote…
Bjjkid: A few honest questions
if the boys is fantastic boy but became frum when he was 16 would you consider it?
is that a offensive suggestion?
Can I paraphrase what you wrote. Why should he suffer because he wasn’t born to frum parents.
Definately don’t “settle”, but if i was you I wouldn’t look at anything other than the boy and where he is now.
Is it fair-perhaps not- but it is the reality and the sooner you accept the better you will be.
If that’s your criteria you will find a quality boy imy”h.
And for the record i’m familar with the difficulties boys/girls in shidduchim from divorced families face.January 12, 2011 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #727594HealthParticipant
While I believe that you shouldn’t have to settle like you say, a lot of posters here have said, marrying someone with your own status isn’t called settling. A point I would like to make, is that I don’t consider marrying a divorced guy with kids settling. Settling is marrying a guy who has mental problems that are severe like schizophernia. I won’t use myself as an example because I’m Nogeia B’dovor, but my former sister-in-law who was never married -married a divorcee with two kids. They are happily married for many years. I think it’s hypocrisy to say I won’t even consider a divorcee, but it’s wrong for others not to even consider a girl from a broken home!January 12, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #727595
Wouldja look at that!January 12, 2011 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #727596
“how about to go out with bochurim who they themselves have been married and divorced, is that fair? i dont think there is a/t wrong with the bochur per say, but i dont think it is fair to say that since my parents marriage did not work out i have to marry a bochur who has been married previously”
Why are you considering marrying a divorced guy anymore second class than a girl from a divorced home? Also give the divorced guy a fair chance.January 12, 2011 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #727597
Afterall, the divorced boy may have gotten divorced for no fault of his own. Why automatically treat a divorced boy as second class and not consider him (assuming he has no children.)January 12, 2011 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #727598
“however i am not yet 20 years old!!!”
Then please, calm down.
Ditto. Don’t jump into something because you’re in panic mode. Marraige is not like choosing a dress or pair of shoes. True,it needs to fit, and it needs to suit your taste, but is extremely difficult to exchange.
Take a deep breath and be patient.January 12, 2011 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #727599
And a 30 year old should jump in?January 12, 2011 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #727600
shiduchim can be difficult and may seem unfair at times. if your parents have no money/ BT/ Out of towners/ If you are from overseas – the frum local community is hard to break into. everyone has to get a check on 1000s of items, who can pass?
Mothers can be difficult too, and not allow you to meet their son, while reality is you are 1000s better than their “holy son”.
So relax, and allow Hashem to guide you. someone prefect will come along. and I would say away from a divorced men. Mangy got divorced for a good reason… just my 2 cents.
Call friends. shadchanaim, rebetzins, teachers – get everyone to work for you!January 12, 2011 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #727601
The same way you say to stay away from divorced men who may have gotten divorced for no fault of theirs, others say stay away from the children of divorced parents who may have not been negatively affected by their parents divorce.
Open your mind for one and you can open your mind for both.January 13, 2011 12:04 am at 12:04 am #727602shaigetsMember
mayb ur basherte cums from broken home , hashem knew u would not take him cuz the bias ,so he had no choise….January 13, 2011 1:01 am at 1:01 am #727603smartcookieMember
Shaigetz- can you please use spellcheck? It’s very hard to read your posts.January 13, 2011 1:11 am at 1:11 am #727604HealthParticipant
Gabboim – “Why automatically treat a divorced boy as second class and not consider him (assuming he has no children.)”
Why the parenthesis? Do you believe that women who become step-mothers are jealous of their husbands when they spend time with their kids, instead of just with her?!?January 13, 2011 2:23 am at 2:23 am #727605illogicgalMember
I realize that it’s very hard to come to terms with things like this when one feels so dependent on others & so rejected by them…but Hashem truly is in charge.
That being said, because it is a lofty concept, here goes the practical side —
It’s not worth fighting to get into a club that doesn’t want you as a member on grounds that are ridiculous. Why would you want to belong to such a group?
In the same vein, why push to get into a family that has preconceived & silly notions that they will hold against you for no good reason? Wouldn’t you prefer going into a family that will cherish you for who you are & not judge you for reasons that are beyond your control?
Your in-laws will be proud of whom you are & where you come from & welcome you into their family proudly….
Don’t settle for anything less than that. And then, you won’t be settling.January 13, 2011 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #727606
BJJ, One more point. time is at your side. you are young. use your time to establish yourself. get a job that interest you. enjoy your friends company. do things. travel with friends on vacations. perhaps get a college degree (if it suits you hashkafically). Life is ahead of you. you can handle shiduchim on a very low flame. no rush. when you get married a few years older, you have formed, have a profession, an income, friends at work who will set you up. life has much more than shiduchim. enjoy your time! laundry and pots will wait…January 13, 2011 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #727607
“And a 30 year old should jump in?”
No, of course not. But after several years of dating, you should be able to look just beyond the surface and see a person for what they really are.
True, you never really know until you’re married. But at 20? What could you possibly be using as experience?January 13, 2011 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #727608
wolf, intersting post about parents divorced, father not frum.
an older girl came to us for help with shiduchim. she does have some baggage, mother frum from a frum nice family, sibs are frum, father is not. didnt ask many questions, did not want to hurt her feelings. she is lacking confidence, does have a profession and a good job. what kind of guys are available and are a reasonable match? how can we help her?
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