July 21, 2011 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #598136
This should really be in the “L’Toeles HaRabbim” thread, as it would relieve many people who may not be aware of this.
Regarding the ma’aseh of Bruriah and Rebbe Meir’s talmid. I don’t remember clearly everything he said and I don’t have access to one now. But the Bnayahu ben Yhoyada explains that Bruriah wasn’t oiver chas v’shalom on anything.
The Talmid was either a sris or some other similar problem. What he did was convince her that she should enter a public bath with him for some made-up skin ailment that he claimed this would help. This was all on the direction of R’ Meir.
There was no aveira. The student had no taiva because of his real condition. Do not think that such a holy woman would commit such a serious aveira.
If anyone has access to a Bnayahu they can look it up there and maybe give more details that I don’t remember.July 21, 2011 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #802418PeacemakerMember
DH: Why then did she commit suicide? And isn’t suicide itself being oiver a serious aveira?July 21, 2011 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #802419gavra_at_workParticipant
I did not know that, thank you for the info.July 21, 2011 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #802420
Peacemaker: I don’t remember all the pratim of the story. I recall it has something to do with her great embarrasment, but really you should look up the story yourself if you have access to the sefer.July 21, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #802421MDGParticipant
The Gemara (AZ 18b) just mentions “Maaseh Bruria” but does not get into detail. Rashi there goes into detail.
The Ben Yehoyada explains that the student was a S’ris, emasculated, and had no desires. He did look normal though, for the most part (or in most parts). She did not know he was not “manly”. He mentions the bath thing as being “platonic” (my word not his). When she was “busted” she was under such embarrassment that she committed suicide (she was not considered an avaryan because of the severe emotional trauma). When Rabbi Meir realized what he had caused, he went to Galut for a kapara.
See the link to see it inside, bottom left of the page.July 21, 2011 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #802423
Oh that link is great. I’ve tried finding a ben yhoyadah online but I never found it before.July 21, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #802424anon for thisParticipant
Derech HaMelech, thanks for explaining.
MDG, are you saying that Rabbi Meir went to galus because he did not expect that result? If so, what did he think would happen? If you (or someone else) could answer, I’d appreciate it, because I still find the incident puzzling.July 21, 2011 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #802425HaLeiViParticipant
He didn’t blame her. To him it was natural, and he knew it would work. He expected her to realize that, too. It was not a public event, and she could have said, “Aha. I see you’re right.” Instead, she took it as a personal failing, and it shook her whole self image.July 21, 2011 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #802426anon for thisParticipant
I see, thanks.August 28, 2011 4:53 am at 4:53 am #802427yael2Member
Why did Rebbe Meir do that to his wife? Even if she spoke up while talking about halacha or embarrassed him I don’t think that would be a reason to be michshul her in ariyos? Did he not love her?August 28, 2011 5:34 am at 5:34 am #802428CR 1Member
The sages said in kiddushin “the ways of women are easily swayed” his wife disagreed R’ Meir told her she will ultimately realize the truth where he had one of her students test her and she refused numerous times until she finally gave inAugust 28, 2011 6:16 am at 6:16 am #802429bein_hasdorimParticipant
Nashim Da’aton Kalos… Imho, to answer the questions posed
She obviously disagreed, and thought that she was an exception to the rule. The problem is this statement has nothing to do with intellect, or piety, it is of the nature of a woman that Chazal made this statement. The only way to prove this to an intellectual person who claims that they are an exception to the rule is to prove it through them.
Obviously the outcome wasn’t predictable or it would have been assur to test her. If it was a woman testing her, she probably would’ve figured suicide was real possibility, but given the different thought process and reaction of male vs. female, one could not find this choice feasible. Ask any guy if that’s what he would do.
I hope I am being clear.August 28, 2011 6:41 am at 6:41 am #802430Aishes ChayilParticipant
Isnt there a school named after her in New Jersey? Whats the story with that?August 28, 2011 7:36 am at 7:36 am #802431am yisrael chaiParticipant
She was a great and brilliant woman.
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