March 30, 2011 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #596011
If a Baal Teshuva was a former ganiv (prior to being chozeh b’teshuva), how can he ever atone for all his thievery? Especially considering he will never remember all the people he stole from, or how much. They are bein adam l’chaveiro sins, not bein adam l’mokom. It would seem obvious the BT should pay back all his victims that he does remember; but that will never be them all.
On a related note, we know that anyone can do t’shuva. Considering that, how could someone like Bernie Madoff do t’shuva, if he now has true 100% charata and wants to do t’shuva? He will never be able to repay the so much money that he stole, as much as he may want to.March 30, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #754139truth be toldMember
#1: I hope you’re not ccommiting the worst type of onaah here.
#2: The Gemora answers he should do tzorchei rabim. An interesting story recently (printed in ish l’reiahu) about a guy who got stuck. A guy drove by and fixed his car. Had all the tools etc. He was a repentent mehanic doing tzorchei rabim to return.
#3: a story with R. Zemel of Volozin. I don’t remember the details. Bottom line was, from the Gra, if one really really does teshuvah and all he can to repay, it will be placed in the other persons heart to forgive.March 30, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #754140gavra_at_workParticipant
Offen Gemorah Bava KamaMarch 30, 2011 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #754141OfcourseMember
Re Bernie Madoff, anyone who “sinks” the bulk of their money into chancy investments, is at fault to some extent, if they lose the money. Everyone aleays says, dont put all or most of your cash/assets in one basket. Ive heard him say that banks are Ponzi schemes to some degree, and I believe that. Theyre paying me interest from money that others are depositing…just what he did. But Madoff didnt have FDIC to back him. And, he’s suffered plenty. I guarantee you for every Madoff who is caught, there are hundreds if not thousands, who arent caught and do what he did regularly.March 30, 2011 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #754142zahavasdadParticipant
Obviously Resh lakish repented and became a Tanah.
he was a robber before he was a tanahMarch 30, 2011 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #754143BSDMember
If some one is not able to repay the person he stole from for whatever reason, he should donate to the local tzedakah in the area from which he stole. Obviously, it’s far from lechatchilah but it has merit. Also, everyone is supposed to say tefilas zaka bofore yom kippur. Lakewood puts out signs on erev yom kippur saying that it is minhag hamakom for everyone to verbalize that they are moichel everyone. On a different note, some one once asked the Chofetz Chaim how he can do Teshuva for spreading damaging Loshon Harah. The Chofetz Chaim responded that he should take a pillow case stuffed with feathers up to the roof of the tallest building and empty the contents into the wind. Afterward, he should go around town and collect each and every feather. “But that’s impossible” the man cried. “Likewise with loshon harah” replied the Chofetz Chaim. “Once the words are out of your mouth, the damage is done and they can never be taken back”March 30, 2011 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #754144
“Offen Gemorah Bava Kama”
At least share which daf. Or better yet summarize what the offene gemorah says. 🙂March 30, 2011 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #754145SacrilegeMember
“Ive heard him say that banks are Ponzi schemes to some degree, and I believe that.”
I’m gonna pay you a visit and take a look under them mattresses 😉March 30, 2011 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #754146oomisParticipant
A person can be chozeir b’teshuvah, but he may not be able to make it a complete teshuvah. That does not mean he should not do so. Better to make it up to five people he remembers harming, than ignoring ALL of the people from whom one stole because he cannot recall all of them, so why bother trying.March 30, 2011 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #754147
“A person can be chozeir b’teshuvah, but he may not be able to make it a complete teshuvah.”
Why would a person not be able to make a complete t’shuva? Is not one of the tenets of Judaism that one can always to a complete t’shuva?March 30, 2011 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #754148OfcourseMember
Sac, I’m gonna pay you a visit and take a look under them mattresses 😉
Banks have FDIC insurance. I dont have to resort to my mattresses, altho not that much to stuff the mattresses with these days anyhow. 😉
Sac, you were recently involved in a real estate transaction you posted somewhere. What and where are you stuffing yours? Also, any good deals or tips you can offer for finding an exceptonally good deal on a house in Brooklyn?March 30, 2011 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #754149SacrilegeMember
“Sac, you were recently involved in a real estate transaction you posted somewhere.”
I closed the deal for my client, he now has a $400,000 mortgage. You may want to check the mattress of the Seller 😉
The best tip involves my all time favorite word the F word! Yup. Foreclosures! (a hobby of mine… ok I’m calm).
I don’t know how aggressively you want to pursue this, whether its an investment or your place of residence, but for real estate on the cheap foreclosures are your best bet. From what I have found the foreclosures in Bk aren’t in the um, desired neighborhoods but I have seen a few in the Kensington/Ditmas Park area.March 31, 2011 12:25 am at 12:25 am #754150
??? ??? ?? ?”? ?”?March 31, 2011 12:32 am at 12:32 am #754151
Can you summarize the Gemora? Thanks.March 31, 2011 2:32 am at 2:32 am #754152
The gemarah tells a story about a theif who wanted to do tshuvah but his wife told him how can you do tshuvah? even the belt you are wearing is not yours, (meaning you cant possibly return everything you stole or you will be pennyless so why bother) in response Chaz”l put in place whats called ???? ????? that aldough a theif is abligated to return what he stole we should not except it from him so to remove a major deterent from doing tshuvah.March 31, 2011 2:47 am at 2:47 am #754153☕️coffee addictParticipant
that was the first gemara that popped into my mind alsoMarch 31, 2011 2:51 am at 2:51 am #754154metrodriverMember
shlishi; Your topic of discussion is a very interesting and wide ranging one; Generally. It is possible for someone who was involved in financial crimes, whether it’s armed robbery or crooked investment deals to do a complete T’shuva. But for someone like Bernie Madoff it is next to impossible to do T’shuva. As it says in the Mishna in Pirkei Avos ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ????? ?????. That if someone causes others to sin, he does not get divine help to facilitate his repentance. The ??”? (Rabbeinu Ovadia of Bartenura) explains the reason for that. Because it would create an absurd situation where he would be considered atoned (for his sins) and those that he caused to sin would remain so (In the eyes of Hashem).March 31, 2011 2:55 am at 2:55 am #754155Joseph / clark-kentMember
Anyone can do teshuva. Even Madoff.March 31, 2011 3:02 am at 3:02 am #754156truth be toldMember
metrodriver: Hashem opened a special hole to accept King Menashes teshuvahMarch 31, 2011 3:14 am at 3:14 am #754157
??? ??????? means he dosent get help but you can still do tshuvah aldough its very hard.
BTW can you explain why you consider Madoff a ???? ??????
He does have another problam about doing tshuvah; ????? ?’ thats another ??? ???????
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