December 24, 2014 2:46 am at 2:46 am #614544
Thoughts and opinions. I hate the internet. I feel that the only reason people really ever used the internet is to get information about the world outside of their environment. Would it be more productive to just occasionally purchase nose-bleed seats at a sports stadium/ take road trips to interesting places of educational value/ encourage children to pursue real hobbies and read books from the library (from a chinuch perspective)?December 24, 2014 2:56 am at 2:56 am #1049823
I make my living from the internetDecember 24, 2014 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1049824JosephParticipant
Vogue: Yes.December 24, 2014 3:49 am at 3:49 am #1049825
zahavasdad: I use the internet for school (community college) and I know that there are practical uses for it. I do agree that computer literacy is important for children. When my children start needing to type assignments for school, I would get a used laptop with usb ports, disable the internet and put microsoft office suite on it so that they can type their school work and then i would print the documents from a different computer. I want an internet filter on my own devices myself as well. I feel like if my kids want to know about black friday, I should just take them shopping instead of them seeing it on a computer screen. I don’t mind if my kids text on their phones but I feel like anything beyond that hampers social development. If my kid wants a denim skirt, as long as it would not be an issue for them (so if I live in a community where people would look down at them even if I bought my kid the skirt I would get it and request that they only wear it when she is in places where it wouldn’t be an issue/ get a denim headband…) I would rather her have that then go off because its associated with a political statement in someone’s else’s mind.December 24, 2014 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1049826
I sell stuff on the internet, that is how I make my parnassah, If everyone would go to the store on Black Friday instead of shopping online I would need to find a new source of income.December 24, 2014 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #1049827
So ZD wants you to dismiss your morals and strongly held beliefs so he can make money.
Hmm. I needn’t say more. Hes not the first to do that.December 24, 2014 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1049828
I use internet for “work” (YWNCR). I guess I could do it on my phone instead if my kids become BTs, but I’d rather they just become MO BTs if that’s gonna be the case.December 24, 2014 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #1049829
When candidates who support immorality promise money to certain organizations get a warm welcome in our communities, thats OK. But If I want to earn a moral parnassah thats not OK?December 24, 2014 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1049830
Errr, what? Those two things have to do with one another? Or have you just written off the entire frum community because of one thing you disagree with?December 24, 2014 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1049831
ZD, nobody’s telling you how you should or shouldn’t earn money, but you post seemed to say that you have a problem with someone staying away from internet, because you’ll lose business. That would be ridiculous, but you probably didn’t mean it that way.December 24, 2014 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1049832akupermaParticipant
Its possible to survive with using email and online banking, but it isn’t easy. If you avoid using credit or debit cards, you won’t need to check balances online to prevent identity theft (a.k.a. crooks raiding your account). The law still measures the period to report fraudulent transactions based on printed statements, though the card will usually stop working long before that. Some banks still send printed statements and return cancelled checks, but they might charge extra. Non-digital media do report news, weather, etc., albeit more slowly.
Obviously some lines of work are impossible, such as anything to do with finance, law, sciences, most retailing, etc. Applying for jobs without the internet is also a problem as most large employers expect applications to be online.
It might be easier to have one computer in an open area (no “sneaking a peak” without other family members knowing it) and limiting what it can be used for.December 24, 2014 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1049833jukeMember
I am a student at a secular college. I finished my last final exam today. I have a weekend trip this weekend that I started planning around sukkos. Given the fact that I have been in school every week four days a week since the beginning of June with the exception of missing class for yamim tovim, I am not sure how to handle having five weeks off of school. I am not sure if I could even find a temporary nanny job.
POSTED 1 WEEK AGO #
Student? Or you have children?December 24, 2014 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1049835Sam2Participant
DY: He was responding to nisht’s quite disgusting comment. Seemed fair to me.December 24, 2014 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #1049836
Sam2 +1December 24, 2014 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #1049837secretagentyidMember
Vogue–I would say it’s a fantastic ideal, but would have to agree with akuperma for the logistics.December 24, 2014 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #1049838
ah, fair point. Sorry zdad, hadn’t seen nisht’s disgusting commentDecember 24, 2014 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1049839
Sam, ZD, popa: it was a comment which, ahem, deserved a response, but the response didn’t seem to fit.
Juke, she is a student who wants to get married, and is thinking about what she wants her future home to look like, and it’s a very valid topic for discussion.December 24, 2014 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #1049840
How about student in shidduchim… Flip that order please.December 24, 2014 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1049841LovelymeMember
Just get k9 children and your goodDecember 24, 2014 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #1049842
Why would being a dog’s parent help?December 24, 2014 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #1049843oyyoyyoyParticipant
Haha, like filters are a lchatchilah. It isnt that hard for a kid who wants to use the internet on a home computer to figure out a way.December 24, 2014 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #1049844
They can only use the internet if there’s an internet connection.December 25, 2014 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1049845
A little analysis is in order. The OP says she does not want her children on the internet. Which is a very reasonable parenting approach. ZD responds “but I make my money selling on the internet”. You are not her child, thus your response must mean that you do not her to take that approach because it will impact you. Because you made the issue about you.
And my comment was disgusting? ???? ????December 25, 2014 12:27 am at 12:27 am #1049846
Ordinarily, I would attempt to make a pithy observation regarding the irony of conducting a discussion about the pros and cons of the internet on an online forum, and perhaps point out that this may lead to a slight skewing of the outcome. But, this being the CR, an exception can be made.
And now for some serious points. Don’t have it in your house. Not with a filter, not with a password, nothing. If your child needs it for school work (and only for school, I can think of no other justifiable reason), then they can do it elsewhere in a supervised environment. This does not stem from over zealousness, but from a more liberal attitude. Having something like the internet in your house, even if you only take it’s addictive nature into account, is removing the child’s free will. When they’re old enough to make their own mind up, step away, but as regards bringing up children there is no real other option.
And if your child is anything like any 8-12 year old of today, they know more about computers than you do, and any filter can be circumvented laughably easily. This includes every filter TAG offer, including K9 and ConvenantEyes. Just don’t take that risk.
Personally, I was bought up without internet in the house, for which I am constantly thankful. I look at some children today who have access, even very limited, and it is completely ruining them. So, to paraphrase Nike, just don’t do it.December 25, 2014 12:57 am at 12:57 am #1049847
8-12 year olds typically cannot bypass any filters.December 25, 2014 1:10 am at 1:10 am #1049848
Nishtdayngesheft, okay, let’s analyze:
Vogue is questioning internet for her future kids, and zd responds that he makes a living from the internet.
There are two ways to read zd’s comment: (a) a simple statement about his own situation, and how it would be affected if everyone went off line, or (b) telling Vogue to sell out her values. You chose (b), probably based on past posts of his.
So you accused zd of telling Vogue to sell out her values on the off chance that she would ever purchase from him. There are two ways to understand your comment: (a) an honest negative reading of zd’s comment, or (b) nastiness. A couple of posters chose (b), probably based on past posts of yours.December 25, 2014 1:20 am at 1:20 am #1049849
8-12 year olds typicaly cannot bypass filters
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but every filter has an opening. In conversation with someone who had internet in the house at that age, they revealed that they had no trouble at all bypassing OpenDNS and K9, and that was despite their parents being computer literate. And if you let a child have a device of their own, they could always get a more knowledgeable friend to do it for them. No, not every child will, but that still leaves many.
That was half the point. It won’t be every child who skips past the filters and ruins their souls online, but enough will that it’s not worth the risk. And even those with responsible parents, who manage to filter adequately, and limits their use in time and content, still have a huge chance of falling prey to bad friends and negative influences. And that is why it isn’t even a question of weighing up the risks, especially when you consider the enormity of the possible dangers.December 25, 2014 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1049850
I know the openings of the filters and I know that most 8-12 year olds can’t get them.December 25, 2014 1:42 am at 1:42 am #1049851
Yet the OP never said anything about everyone going off the internet.
Yet ZD made this about how this would impact him.
I am not a nasty person, however I tend to voice my displeasure at krum hashkafos.
Such as Avi Weiss’ and those who support his attacks on the Torah.
And other such comments.December 25, 2014 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1049852
If you know the openings, you know they are often easily accessed, and yes, there are definitely 8-12 year old’s who know them. Not all, but definitely a significant amount. And had you read my post thoroughly, you would know that the exact numbers and ages are not the main point. The fact is that by giving a child access, no matter how careful you are, you run the risk of there being issues. Some of them are less common than others. They may get addicted, which can happen even if the device is heavily filtered. Not every child will bypass a filter. But I can guarantee, if they attempt to, they stand a better than even chance of succeeding. And, especially when you consider the magnitude of the danger if they do succeed, is that a risk worth taking?December 25, 2014 2:11 am at 2:11 am #1049853
To me, the idea of having a used laptop with disabled internet means that I take the laptop to a tech guy. There is a code embedded into every device that has internet access capability. If you delete the code, the internet is disabled. A child cannot get around that (in other words, I “paid” someone to break the computer). I agree that all children should be computer literate especially in todays world. I think its awful that (and as a by graduate, I know) that my friends who do have internet in their homes do not know how to use computers. I have one friend that constantly asks me her tech support questions (like how to use powerpoint. You need to pay for it. Oh, then I guess we do not have it. How will I do my assignment. Let me show you how to use google drive). At least if they have a laptop with disabled internet, microsoft office and photoshop, when they do become adults, they will have already learned how to use a usb drive, type documents and basic graphic design skills which are critical in the work world.
ZD: I know many people who need internet for work. I understand that and that is not an issue. If a child is purchasing something from the internet, presumably with a credit card, even if the child has internet access, their parents should be consulted. Most of the time, its their money.December 25, 2014 2:39 am at 2:39 am #1049854
Agreed 100%. A computer in itself isn’t a bad thing. A child should definitely learn how to use a computer, for work, play, whatever. But the internet is fire, and should be kept far from children lest they get burned, perhaps behind a firewall (and that’s it for poor puns).December 25, 2014 2:43 am at 2:43 am #1049855TRUEBTParticipant
The filtering is done on a router that they control. It’s difficult to circumvent. You can make a white list, so ZD’s web store could be included.
As far as what to give the kid instead of the internet goes:
Ideally, we are all supposed to be involved with Torah and Mitzvos 24/7/365. No secular books or trips to stadiums allowed at all – for pleasure. Of course, nowadays most people are decadent to some extent, so we would go nuts without our various forms of fun and relaxation. The Torah concept is that pleasure is only supposed to come from accomplishing. A great person is someone who doesn’t need the secular books or trips to stadiums because he gets his pleasure from Torah and Mitvos. To the extent that a child’s parents live up to that ideal, that is somewhere around the extent that the child will probably live up to it. Mishnayos can be just as interesting and fun as a secular book – if that is the father’s attitude towards learning. Preparing for the Chagim can be as much fun as going to a ballgame – if that is the father’s attitude towards mitvos.
I only bring up this lofty ideal since the whole discussion seems to be theoretical. In the real world, you’re probably going to need to buy various forms of bribes to get the kid to do what you want.
The sad reality is that the minute you give the kid a library card, he has access to unfiltered internet in the library.
There are neighborhoods where the “bad friends and negative influences” are kept to a minimum. Perhaps ask yeshivanet in which neighborhoods their services are popular and try to move there?December 25, 2014 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1049856
Kids can’t get past a filter without full computer access.December 25, 2014 3:23 am at 3:23 am #1049857
I mostly sell on eBay and Amazon, there are alot of frum people who sell on these sitesDecember 25, 2014 3:30 am at 3:30 am #1049858
Kids can’t get past a filter without full computer access
That is true in most cases, but I know of cases where kids bypasses the admin by rebooting the entire computer manually. But if the child figures out the parent’s passwords, they can do what they want. So inasmuch as if there is one computer in the house, with access limited in terms of time and content, technologically minded parents, and constant vigilance, then I admit the risks are diminished, if not eliminated.
But children are not stupid. I certainly could have got hold of my parent’s passwords, one way or another, had I put my mind to it. And if there are multiple devices in the home, if there is any lapse in concentration, if the child spends too much time on it, if the filter is anything less than completely foolproof (and most aren’t), then the risk becomes enormous. And how many homes can honestly claim to have taken every possible precaution? In my experience, they represent a tiny minority.
And so my point remains. The pros of the internet (as far as domestic use is concerned) are anyway minimal and arguable. The risks, even in a very careful home, are huge. So, to go back to the original point, just don’t do it.December 25, 2014 3:51 am at 3:51 am #1049859
If there is a password on the machine itself, the kids can’t bypass the admin either.December 25, 2014 5:17 am at 5:17 am #1049861
I am not going to start detailing methods of bypassing filters here (unlike some others), but suffice it to say it is never a risk worth taking, and there is no real substitute for just keeping it out of the home. It is gambling with lives, and therefore cannot be taken lightly. If you wish to justify it to yourself, go ahead, but don’t say it’s infallible, cos it’s not.December 25, 2014 5:18 am at 5:18 am #1049862
Most kids aren’t computer experts.December 25, 2014 5:45 am at 5:45 am #1049863
As I have said numerous times (not that I’m complaining, we’re both bored enough for this inane argument, considering the time), you don’t need to be a computer expert, just computer literate. And virtually every kid around today, especially in that age bracket, knows their way around a computer. And I’m willing to bet that many, if not most, kids over 10 know a good deal more than their parents.
And, as I have also said more than enough times, it is relatively easy for a child to gain access if their parents are anything less than completely careful. All they need is a device that, whilst filtered and passworded, isn’t being monitored carefully. This can easily happen if there is more than one device in the home. It can be a games console, an old laptop, a phone, virtually anything. Remember, many children will endeavour to gain extra access, especially if they have been given a taste in controlled amounts. Virtually every filter has a fault. And even with a filter, a child can get addicted.
Not to be needlessly confrontational, but you still haven’t justified having internet in the house, nor have you addressed my key points as far as addiction and vigilance is concerned. The only attempted rebuttal has been when you’ve just insisted that ‘kids aren’t experts’, and attempted to assert that there is a foolproof method.
But what you need to realise is the benefits are tiny, if present at all, and the risks are about as large as possible. There isn’t any foolproof way. The only fool is the one who needlessly risks the neshomah of his or her family.December 25, 2014 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #1049865Shopping613 🌠Participant
Do not have time to read entire thread, gotta leave 4 chesed in like 3 minutes.
My opinion is if a kid grows up with no internet completely he will be curious and evantually find himself trapped in a world he knows nothing about., He wont know basic internet saftey.
My prents let me do wtvr I want and don’t care, I have to set my own bounderies, it’s hard and not matim for every kid,
But none at all no exposure is a bad idea.
How can you fight something when you don’t know anything about?December 25, 2014 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1049866
And so my point remains. The pros of the internet (as far as domestic use is concerned) are anyway minimal and arguable.
1. You can earn a Parnassah
2. There is alot of Torah available on the internet that would not otherwise be available (Torahanytime for example)
3. Shopping is easier and you get can better prices and more information on what to buy and even if you go to a B&M , you can still use the information obtained on the internet for a better price and/or better product
4. Its makes communication much easier with family in Israel as calls can be free and you can skype to see your grandparents and/or grandchildren and other family members when travel is expensive and difficultDecember 25, 2014 3:42 pm at 3:42 pm #1049867
There is a world of a difference between no exposure and no use in the home. If you genuinely believe a child needs to learn to deal with the internet (and having internet in the home will whet, not assuage, their appetite), they can do it elsewhere in a controlled environment, of which there are plenty available. Learning to deal with the internet, perhaps, but living with it is simply a no go. Much of this smacks of self justification.December 25, 2014 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #1049868
5. Hebrew Books.org many Seforim would be out of reach for many as they are either limited prints or out of print and now you have easy access to themDecember 25, 2014 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1049869
If i am in school/ work, to me that is enough of a justification to have it in the home even if my children are not being granted access to it. At my age, I am only going to school in order to have a chance to make more money for my parnassah down the line. If I am working, I may need it to answer work related things.December 25, 2014 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1049870
Zahavasdad, sorry, but you obviously did not read my post fully. The pros are arguable in terms of domestic use. By which I mean there are useful uses for the internet, but not to the extent that there is any justification for bringing up children with it in the house.
Business and shopping uses can be easily confined to any public computer or office. The excuse of using the internet for learning is the oldest in the book, and still doesn’t hold sway for me. It’s not as if seforim are that hard to come by that you need the internet for it. If you’re that desperate there are many non internet enabled programs, or maybe just get a kindle, as friends of mine have done. Trust me, Hashem would rather you didn’t have internet in the home, as virtually every Godol holds.
And that leaves communication. This easily falls into the exact category outlined in my earlier posts, of a minimal use that does not absolutely require domestic use, and which certainly goes no way towards justifying home internet. So why not do Zahava a favour, and stop attempting to justify the unjustifiable.December 25, 2014 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1049871
Trust me, Hashem would rather you didn’t have internet in the home,
And how do you know this, Did you recently speak to him?December 25, 2014 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1049872
Every Godol has said, repeatedly and forcefully, that there is no heter to have it in the home, and that includes for learning. So yes, by following daas Torah, I know what Hashem wants from a person.December 25, 2014 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #1049873
Your being against internet in the home is a justification for raising children who will never know how to live in the real world. And also for not being able to afford internet bills. So stop trying to justify the unjustifiable.December 25, 2014 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #1049874flatbusherParticipant
Hashem gave the chochmah, the wisdom, to create the Internet just as He gave the chochmah to develop life-saving drugs and other aspects of our lives that are positive. Rather than ban the Internet, instruct your children how to use it responsibly. I think the problems arise when people who have been deprived of it suddenly discover it and just don’t know how to deal with it. By separating themselves completely from the outside world, they are as ill prepared as children who have not been vaccinated and are open to disease. No one can deny there are problems out there, but you pretty have much to look for trouble; better to learn what’s right and wrong rather than reject this gift from Hashem.
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