BTL Advice and Planning

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  • #612143

    I want to stay in yeshiva for awhile and not waste time and money in college for so long. If I get a btl from the ner, or another comparable yeshiva, would I then be able to get accepted into a decent masters program in areas such as jewish studies, near eastern studies, bible, or some other related field? Does a place like YU or Touro, or even a better university accept btls into master degree programs?

    #1004883
    akuperma
    Participant

    Except for law (which an accredited undergraduate degree is legally required in most states), graduate schools don’t even require a BA to get in, but it certainly helps. Getting accept to a graduate program requires, typically, an undergraduate degree, and a transcript that shows you can do the work required, and it helps if you can convince them you know what you are doing. Fro example, if you come to an interview and can switch between Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic (a.k.a. Syriac), Farsi and Turkish — they will be very impressed if you are applying for a program in middle eastern languages. Want ancient near eastern studies: write your application letter in Akkadian.

    But for normal people, they look at your undergraduate transcript, references, and anything else you can use to “sell” yourself, and a BTL from a yeshiva is not especially prestigious. It does mean you are qualified to apply without asking for an “exception”, but if all your transcript has is evidence of studying in a yeshiva you may not be in a great position.

    And of course, many schools are very happy to admit people who pay full tuition, and even more so if your family wants to endow something.

    #1004884
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    lol

    not bad

    #1004885
    Mr Sfardi
    Participant

    Medical/Dental school requires a btl also

    #1004886
    Health
    Participant

    Mr Sfardi – “Medical/Dental school requires a btl also”

    What r u talking about? Those schools require real under grad degrees!

    #1004887
    akuperma
    Participant

    Health: Actually, a Medical/Dental school could admit someone without an undergraduate degree, and in fact many have programs leading to combined BS-MD degrees. The requirement of an undergraduatge background is “law” rather than “minhag” only for law and then not in all states. However its a very strong minhag.

    Somewith a BTL combined with the correct coursework (available in many places that offer one year pre-med programs for people with degrees in other subject) would be adequate. Of course you would have to be especially brilliant with fanatstic grades in the science courses and great scores and a fanatstic resume – but it can happen. It’s easier to go to a regular college to take the premed courses as part of an undergraduate program. A BTL trying to to medical school would be no worse off than an English major or Jewish studies major.

    #1004888
    Mr Sfardi
    Participant

    Dry my bad I meant to say a BA

    #1004889

    Akuperma: thank you so much for the advice! As it happens, I have been studying arabic to help get an edge in the field- it’s a good tip you brought up. Just to clarify: is it possible to get into a decent graduate program with a btl, good grades, and some interesting extra-curriculars/letters of recommendation? If not, would I be better off going to college full time and yeshiva at night, so I could actually get into a masters and maybe eventually phd program?

    #1004890
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    very funny, rationalfrummie. Now do shidduchim.

    #1004891

    say what? I’m not in shidduchim right now. what does that have to do with the question?

    #1004892
    Health
    Participant

    akuperma -“Health: Actually, a Medical/Dental school could admit someone without an undergraduate degree, and in fact many have programs leading to combined BS-MD degrees.”

    You must be lawyer. The facts are many Yeshiva guys take their BTL’s and go to law school. Don’t waste your time applying to

    Medical/Dental w/o an under grad degree, because even if you can get in – you won’t be able to Pass!

    #1004893
    jbaldy22
    Member

    unfortunately the same is true with many yeshiva guys who go to law school off of BTLs (the not passing part)

    #1004894
    Health
    Participant

    jbaldy22 -“unfortunately the same is true with many yeshiva guys who go to law school off of BTLs (the not passing part)”

    My friend went that way. He isn’t a genius, but he has a brain in his head. He now works for himself in Lakewood.

    #1004895
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    unfortunately the same is true with many yeshiva guys who go to law school off of BTLs (the not passing part)

    shtuyot.

    1. Law schools don’t fail people anymore.

    2. There is nothing in undergrad that prepares you for law school anyway. (No, you don’t need to know how to write in law school, go read any law school forum)

    #1004896
    FFG
    Participant

    Some of the info given regarding medical school admission requirements are not quite correct. While not every single school requires a degree from a four year school, the vast majority do. I have never heard of a single case of anyone going to medical school with only a BTL plus the prerequisite classes for applying. I can absolutely tell you that it would not be viewed favorably, and would certainly be viewed as “worse off” than an english or jewish studies major from an actual college.

    #1004897
    heretohelp
    Member

    To get back to the original post, which had nothing to do with law school or medical school, I would think that to get into the type of program you are talking about you would have to demonstrate the ability to do a college level research paper, which has two components- research ability and writing ability. I don’t know that a BTL would demonstrate that.

    #1004898
    jbaldy22
    Member

    @Health

    not saying that you can’t do it just its much more difficult to get into a good school with it and a high pct drop out or fail out (this is based on a conversation I had with the head of admissions at Fordham Law a while back).

    #1004899
    lawnmoer
    Member

    popa_bar_abba “2. There is nothing in undergrad that prepares you for law school anyway. (No, you don’t need to know how to write in law school, go read any law school forum)”

    I generally do not comment on here but I strongly disagree with the above and would like to add some other thoughts on this which may be helpful. By way of background, I graduated from law school a few years ago and I am currently working at a top law firm. I thought about getting a btl at one point but ultimately decided to go to college prior to law school.

    Unlike medical school, almost anyone can get into ‘a’ law school as the standards for the lower tier schools are not particularly robust. Many smart yeshiva guys can get into pretty good law schools. But the key to getting one of the high paying jobs at the “biglaw” firms is to do well in a good law school. It is not that difficult to coast through any law school with B’s but it is very difficult to get one of the few A’s in the class. There are strict curves in most law schools, so that means beating your competition, which are folks coming from four years at ivy league and other top colleges from around the country.

    Your grades will be based on finals which, for most classes, are based entirely on essay exams. Other classes will be based on a final paper. So, in fact, you are usually graded based solely on your analytical and writing skills (assuming that almost everyone studies the material and knows the information). So the difference between an A and a B will often be “knowing how to write”.

    There have been some btl success stories that have gotten in to good law schools, done well, and went on to get jobs at good firms. But those are exceptional cases and were most likely very intelligent people who were able to overcome their lack of experience with taking written exams and writing papers relative to the other students, but not because writing doesn’t matter. And getting these jobs nowadays is substantially more competitive than it was 5 years ago.

    Moreover, when applying for a law job, prospective employers will look at your resume, including your undergraduate degree and relevant work experience. Having a btl in talmudic law (even a 4.0!) and little or no experience will be measured against other resumes with degrees in business or science from top universities and internships/jobs at well-known institutions. These are just some more hurdles to overcome.

    If your goal is not necessarily to get a job at a big law firm, that is fine. But getting a good paying job at any firm will likely depend on what school you went to and how well you did. Unfortunately, given the economy and current legal market, there are lots of lawyers with $100K or more of student loans with poor job prospects. So the combintation of a btl and a lower ranked law school / mediocre grades may not be a great bet.

    Besides, if writing is not your thing, you may want to consider a different profession. While many people envision giving fascinating closing arguments or negotiating billion dollar transactions, most lawyers spend the bulk of their time sitting in an office reading/writing motions or contracts.

    Of course, bitachon is key in any parnassah that one pursues, but I think the hishtadlus aspect should also be reasonable and not be rooted in ignorance or fantasy.

    #1004900
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    It is possible to go to medical/dental school with just a BTL. I know a handful of people who have done it over the past few years. Though it is getting harder, and I definitely would not recommend that route.

    #1004901
    heretohelp
    Member

    To go to medical/dental school you need to have taken calculus, biology, chemistry, physics and organic chemistry, so if those aren’t covered in your BTL, you need to get them elsewhere.

    #1004902
    Health
    Participant

    lawnmoer -Read what I wrote before – a lot of Yeshiva guys only want the degree and then they open up their own pratices.

    #1004903
    Health
    Participant

    heretohelp -“To go to medical/dental school you need to have taken calculus, biology, chemistry, physics and organic chemistry, so if those aren’t covered in your BTL, you need to get them elsewhere.”

    That’s why noone knows how to practice medicine. What do you need this for -“calculus, chemistry (maybe?), physics and organic chemistry”?

    #1004904
    bais yakov maidel
    Participant

    “That’s why noone knows how to practice medicine. What do you need this for -“calculus, chemistry (maybe?), physics and organic chemistry”?”

    Health, are you serious? You don’t think knowing this is necessary for the practice of medicine? So what do YOU think one should know to go to medical school?

    Then again, apparently there were great people who knew medicine without ever having learned physics or chemistry.

    (Btw, to the best of my knowledge, the only medical school that requires calculus is Harvard Medical School. Almost all other medical schools in the US require basic courses in biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and physics.)

    #1004905
    heretohelp
    Member

    I found this list of medical schools that require some form of calculus or math.

    Medical Schools with Math Requirements

    (from MSAR 2007-2008)

    The following chart lists all of the schools that publish a requirement in math. If you do not find a school on this list, it is

    because they do not have a math requirement.

    Alabama

    University of Alabama 2 semesters college math

    Calculus recommended

    Computer Science recommended

    University of S. Alabama 2 semesters college math

    Calculus is recommended

    Arkansas

    University of Arkansas 2 semesters college math

    Calculus recommended

    Computer Science recommended

    California

    USC Keck College math recommended

    Calculus recommended

    Computer Science recommended

    UC Davis 2 semesters College level Mathematics

    Statistics is recommended

    UC Irvine 1 semester Calculus

    1 semester Statistics

    UCLA 2 semesters college math which should include:

    Study of Introductory Calculus and Statistics

    Computer Science recommended

    UC San Diego 2 semesters college math (only Calculus, Statistics, and

    Computer Science will be acceptable)

    Computer Science recommended

    Loma Linda Intro to Basic Statistics recommended

    Computer Science recommended

    Stanford University Calculus recommended

    Colorado

    University of Colorado 2 semesters college math

    Computer Science recommended

    Connecticut

    U Conn Math, Calculus recommended

    District of Columbia

    Georgetown University 1 semester college math/statistics

    Computer Science recommended

    Howard University 2 semesters college math

    Florida

    Florida State University 2 semesters college math

    University of South Florida 2 semesters college math

    Georgia

    Morehouse School of

    Medicine

    2 semesters college math

    Illinois

    Southern Illinois University 2 semesters college math recommended

    U Chicago Pritzker Calculus recommended

    Iowa

    U Iowa 1 semester college math

    Kansas

    University of Kansas 1 semester college math

    Kentucky

    University of Louisville 1 semester Calculus

    2 semesters math overall recommended

    Louisiana

    Louisiana State-NO 1 semester calculus recommended

    2 semesters math overall recommended

    Computer Science recommended

    Maryland

    Johns Hopkins University 2 semesters Calculus

    Computer Science recommended

    Uniformed Services University 1 semester Calculus

    Massachusetts

    Boston University 2 semesters Calculus recommended

    Harvard University 2 semesters Calculus

    U Massachusetts Calculus, Statistics recommended

    Computer Science recommended

    Michigan

    Michigan State University Math through College Algebra or Statistics and Probability

    Computer Science recommended

    Minnesota

    U Minnesota Duluth 1 semester Calculus or upper level Statistics

    U Minnesota Minneapolis 1 semester Calculus

    Statistics recommended

    Mississippi

    University of Mississippi 2 semesters college math

    Calculus recommended

    Missouri

    U Missouri-Columbia 1 semester college math

    Washington University 2 semesters Calculus

    Nebraska

    University of Nebraska 1 semester Calculus

    Nevada

    U Nevada-Reno Calculus, College Math recommended

    Computer Science recommended

    New Hampshire

    Dartmouth Medical School 1 semester Calculus

    New Jersey

    Medical School

    1 semester college math is recommended

    Johnson

    1 semester college math

    New York

    Albert Einstein College of

    Medicine

    2 semesters college math (may include Computer Science or

    Statistics)

    Mt. Sinai School of Medicine 2 semesters college math (may include Computer Science or

    Statistics)

    University of Rochester Calculus, Biostatistics recommended

    SUNY-Upstate Calculus recommended

    North Carolina

    Brody School of Medicine Biostatistics recommended

    Duke University 1 semester Calculus

    1 semester college math (statistics/biostastics recommended)

    North Dakota

    University of North Dakota 1 semester college math

    Computer Science recommended

    Ohio

    Medical College of Ohio 2 semesters college math

    Northeastern Ohio Calculus, College math recommended

    University of Cincinnati Calculus, College math recommended

    Computer Science recommended

    Wright State University 2 semesters college math

    Calculus recommended

    Oregon

    Oregon Health & Science

    University

    1 semester college math

    Statistics, Calculus recommended

    Pennsylvania

    Jefferson College Math recommended

    Pennsylvania State University 2 semesters college math

    Calculus recommended

    U of Pennsylvania Knowledge of Calculus, Algebra, Statistics recommended

    Computer Science recommended

    University of Pittsburgh Strong background in math recommended

    Puerto Rico

    Ponce School of Medicine 2 semesters college math or trig

    Universidad Central del

    Caribe

    2 semesters college math

    Calculus recommended Computer Science recommended

    U of Puerto Rico Computer Science recommended

    Rhode Island

    Brown University 1 semester calculus

    South Carolina

    Medical University of SC 1 semester Calculus is recommended

    South Dakota

    University of South Dakota 2 semesters of college math

    Calculus recommended

    Texas

    Texas A & M 1 semester Calculus

    1 semester math-based Statistics

    Texas Tech 1 semester Calculus

    1 semester math-based Statistics

    U of Texas-Galveston 1 semester Calculus

    U of Texas-Houston 2 semesters College Math

    U of Texas-San Antonio 1 semester Calculus

    U of Texas-Southwestern 1 semester Calculus

    Utah

    U of Utah Calculus, College Math recommended

    Vermont

    UVM College Math recommended

    Virginia

    Virginia Commonwealth

    University

    2 semesters College Math

    Wisconsin

    Medical College of Wisconsin 1 semester College Math

    University of Wisconsin 2 semesters College Math

    Calculus, Statistics recommended

    #1004906
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    heretohelp, I’m sorry if I wasnt clear.

    My comment was meant in response to FFG “I have never heard of a single case of anyone going to medical school with only a BTL plus the prerequisite classes for applying.”

    To which I replied that it wa sin fact possible to go to Medical/dental school with just A BTL (obviously you have to take any specific perquisites that they require, as well as MCAT/DAT etc)

    Ner Yisroel has (had?) such a program in place and has had BTl’s accepted in University of Maryland Medical and Dental schools, NYU dental school, SUNY at Buffalo school of medicine, Arizona School of dentistry, Technion, Ben Gurion University, amonng a few others.

    That said I still dont recommend this path.

    #1004907
    lawnmoer
    Member

    Health “lawnmoer -Read what I wrote before – a lot of Yeshiva guys only want the degree and then they open up their own pratices.”

    Hanging your own shingle without at least a few solid years of experience learning the “practice” of law (which is not taught in law schools) is usually a bad idea. Thinking that you can just open up your own firm and that you will have clients and have any clue what you are doing is just one more misconception that people thinking about going to law school have.

    Unless your father-in-law has a large legal practice with lots of paying clients, in which case why wouldn’t you just stay in Kollel…

    #1004908
    heretohelp
    Member

    Ubiquitin- I was responding to Bais Yakov Maidel’s comment that to the best of her knowledge, Harvard is the only medical school that requires calculus.

    #1004909
    Health
    Participant

    bais yakov maidel -“Health, are you serious? You don’t think knowing this is necessary for the practice of medicine? So what do YOU think one should know to go to medical school?”

    I know that it isn’t important! The reason they have the requirements is because it’s a measurement of your IQ!

    #1004910
    Health
    Participant

    lawnmoer -“Hanging your own shingle without at least a few solid years of experience learning the “practice” of law (which is not taught in law schools) is usually a bad idea. Thinking that you can just open up your own firm and that you will have clients and have any clue what you are doing is just one more misconception that people thinking about going to law school have.”

    Maybe that’s your misconception! Here in Lakewood, many people do just that and they make a fine income.

    “Unless your father-in-law has a large legal practice with lots of paying clients, in which case why wouldn’t you just stay in Kollel…”

    I actually know s/o like that. Another misconception of yours.

    The FIL doesn’t want to support him forever, but is willing to pay

    for him to go to Law school.

    #1004911
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Law school is like signing up to stay put.

    #1004912
    bais yakov maidel
    Participant

    Health, testing IQ is a secondary reason for making ppl take those courses. The main reason is because you need to know that stuff to understand the first thing about modern medicine. Please tell me you were joking when you said it’s solely to test IQ. Besides, there were would be many shorter and less expernsive ways to test IQ more directly than make someone take 3 years worth of prerequisites and the mcat

    #1004913
    Health
    Participant

    bais yakov maidel -“Health, testing IQ is a secondary reason for making ppl take those courses. The main reason is because you need to know that stuff to understand the first thing about modern medicine. Please tell me you were joking when you said it’s solely to test IQ. Besides, there were would be many shorter and less expernsive ways to test IQ more directly than make someone take 3 years worth of prerequisites and the mcat”

    No joking around. The only things that I’ve found helpful in college is A & P, 1 & 2, Microbiology, possibly Statistics, and knowing how to use a computer, nothing else!

    #1004914
    bais yakov maidel
    Participant

    health, are you a medical doctor?

    #1004915
    Health
    Participant

    bais yakov maidel -“health, are you a medical doctor?”

    I don’t answer private questions!

    #1004916
    heretohelp
    Member

    bais yakov maidel -“health, are you a medical doctor?”

    “I don’t answer private questions!”

    I think we can take that as a no.

    #1004917
    Health
    Participant

    heretohelp -“I think we can take that as a no.”

    Take it anyway you want.

    #1004918
    FFG
    Participant

    Bais Yakov Maidel – I’d take it as a ‘no’ too, but I can tell you as someone who is a few months away from being a medical doctor that you are pretty much entirely correct in your assessment of the pre-med curriculum. True, no one is gonna ask you to synthesize a Grignard reagent, explain nucleophilic substitution, calculate Gibbs free energy constant or ask you to find the velocity of an electron in an electromagnetic field, in medical school. However, the underlying principles in many of the courses that teach you how to do those things are pretty important to medicine, and certainly do form a basis on which to build further scientific knowledge.

    #1004919
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    FFG that is nonsesne. Could you please provide an example of how the uderlying principle behind synthesizing a Grignard reagent (or any of your examples) is even a little (let alone “pretty”) important in medicine.

    Health’s assesmsnt is entierly correct. (alhough granted he essentially replied “No to BYM’s question)

    Good luck in the match

    #1004920
    FFG
    Participant

    I didn’t say that the principle behind the specific examples that I gave were directly relevant to the practice of medicine. I said that the CLASSES in which those topics are taught contain underlying principles that are important to the study of medicine. As a quick example, in Physics 2, students learn a number of principles and forumlas related to electrical current, voltage, and resistance. The equations for determining these things are almost identical to those used to determine blood flow through the body. Cardiac output represents electrical current, blood pressure represents voltage and systemic vascular resistance represents electrical resistance. If one can understand the concepts related to electrical current, one will have a very easy time grasping hemodynamic concepts as well. Besides for other specific examples, most sciences are related to each other in some way, and knowledge gained in one area is very often at least tangentially applicable in another area. Being well rounded in the sciences is, in my opinion at least, very important to anyone seeking to enter the medical field. And at least for the time being (though there are some changes to the premed requirements that are being proposed), admissions offices at practically all US medical schools agree with me.

    Thanks for your well wishes regarding the match!

    #1004921
    bais yakov maidel
    Participant

    ubiquitin,

    are you serious???

    how would one understand how antibiotics work without knowing molecular biology?

    how would one know anything in orthopedics without understanding torque, young’s modulus, and newton’s three laws…?

    how would one know anything about an MRI without understanding how moving charged particles interact with a magnetic field?

    how would one know anything about radioactive tracing without understanding half-lives and radioactivity?

    how would one know anything about opthamology without an understanding of optics (physics)?

    how drugs work without knowing basic organic chemistry?

    neurology and nervous system without knowing general chemistry? (think polarization, depalarization)

    respiration (aerobic and anaerobic) without knowing general chemistry?

    The am haratzus of some frum people regarding general/secular knowledge is best embarrassing and at worst absolutely pitiful.

    FFG, I find it insane that we even need to justify ourselves.

    #1004922
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    FFG I did speak to addmisions officers All three said it was just measure iteligence.

    Bis yakov maidel

    You can pick up what you need to know in med school. You cite a few examples barely any of which are valid (Eg the average physician does not need to know how an MRI works nor does he/she)and Besides those can be taught in med school. It doesnt help the orthopedst much that he learnt young’s modulus at least 5 years prior to becoming an orthopedist. By the time it would become relevant it has long been forgotten. Ditto for your ophthalmologist example.

    Even half of what you study the first year has zero real world application and will never be revisted by the average physician once step one is behind you.(think memorizing steps in Krebs cycle)

    I happen to think those subjects are important in of themselves. But they have little to no application in the understanding or practice of real world medicine

    #1004923
    Health
    Participant

    ubiquitin -“FFG that is nonsesne. Could you please provide an example of how the uderlying principle behind synthesizing a Grignard reagent (or any of your examples) is even a little (let alone “pretty”) important in medicine.

    Health’s assesmsnt is entierly correct.”

    THANKS!

    #1004924
    bais yakov maidel
    Participant

    ubiqiotin,

    I don’t know about you, but once learn a topic well, five years later, I may not remember every detail, but I it’s not the same as never having learned it before.

    your attitude is reminiscent of an attitude I used to have, one that’s quite common of “yeah, I’ll be able to pick up all the stuff I need as I go along…jewish ppl are smart…”

    Were these admissions officers doctors?

    Whatever. I’m not arguing that you need every detail in the prerequsiite subjects in med school. I AM arguing that you need the prerequisites because you need a solid understanding of the sciences before you venture into modern medicine which is built on the sciences. You need a frame into which you can place all you learn in medical school. You need that foundation because you will need to make decisions based not just on random facts, but based on an understanding of how things relate to eachother.

    Like learning the theory behind an equation, not just memorizing the equation and plugging in numbers. Goodness. Please don’t become a doctor with this attitude.

    #1004926
    FFG
    Participant

    Well, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Though if you haven’t gone through medical school yet, I think you may be surprised to find out how wrong you are about this, if that is where you are headed.

    #1004927
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Ffg

    Do me a favorfile away this conversation in your head and please get back to me in a year I’m curious if you still feel the same way

    don’t worry while you will be busy you will have some time for yeshiva world

    #1004928
    Health
    Participant

    ubiquitin – What about responding to “bais yakov maidel” isn’t she also a med/pre-med student?

    #1004929
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    BY maidel

    I am not saying the information is useless. All I (and health) are saying is that the reason why (some) med schools require say organic chemistry and physics is, as one admissions officer told me “To separate the men from the boys” (All were doctors though only two were physicians the other was a PHD)It is not necessary for med school and even less necessary for medicine

    #1004930
    from Long Island
    Participant

    There are a lot of skills that one must have before one can be a successful student in graduate school/med/dental/law schools.

    Being bright does not guarantee success.

    One need be able to write, that means spell (spell check won’t work), how to write a topic sentence, how to structure a paper, how to research a topic, how to “source” a paper, etc.

    This is not a skill that is taught in most yeshivas and is NOT easily self-taught.

    One needs to know how to research any topic, how to judge/rate information sources, etc.

    There are very few excuses that are accepted in graduate school. One needs to know how to prepare and deliver projects on time. Yontiff is not an acceptable excuse.

    The “graduate world” is a goyish world,(even Touro) and one often works in assigned groups. One needs to know how to interact, relate, and work with people outside of your comfort zone. It is not an easy transition.

    College, or some college will,at least, prepare you for some of the challenges you will face.

    Being smart, working hard will not bring success, you will need specific SKILLS to succeed.

    Often, courses given in college, ie: anatomy, are required for admission for OT, PT, PA, MD schools EVEN though you will have to repeat it on the graduate level.

    I cannot imagine how large a disadvantage it would be, going into these demanding programs unprepared.

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