July 1, 2012 4:07 am at 4:07 am #603948
So you know how if you are traveling and are very hungry, and it is more than 72 minutes to water, then you can eat without washing?
So but what if you have water with you?
See, suppose you are hiking, and are carrying a backpack with a sleeping bag and a tent and pots and a stove and 5 days worth of food and emergency stuff and bear spray and a bear box and your car keys–and water! But you need the water to drink.
So can you eat bread?July 1, 2012 4:45 am at 4:45 am #882190
You must use your water to wash for the bread. Otherwise, you cannot eat the bread.July 1, 2012 4:49 am at 4:49 am #882191
If you had in mind that the previous washing should be for this meal as well. You do not need to wash again.
It’s a machlokes if it’s a lichatchila.July 1, 2012 5:29 am at 5:29 am #882192
2scents: that won’t work, since you will have gotten your hands dirty many times since you last washed that morning at your previous campsite.July 1, 2012 7:06 am at 7:06 am #882193
I thought you could rub your hands on a tree, if need be.July 1, 2012 7:13 am at 7:13 am #882194
Mommamia, that may be good enough to clean your hands to make a brocho, but not for bread.
popa: Perhaps you could make sure you have no suitable cup to wash. Or that the water isn’t good for washing.
This doesn’t answer your original question, I know.July 1, 2012 7:14 am at 7:14 am #882195
But I have a cup to wash. The cup that I wash with in the morning, and eat out of, and drink out of.July 1, 2012 7:21 am at 7:21 am #882196
i dont see the issue. If you need the water to drink, you can rub your hands on a tree or something.July 1, 2012 7:33 am at 7:33 am #882197
I guess I could rub my hands on a tree… but what if I also want to eat bread and keep halacha?July 1, 2012 7:40 am at 7:40 am #882198
Aren’t you allowed to keep the bread wrapped in paper and say hamotzie without touching the bread?
I also thought that just like you could turn the faucet on and off, you could pour directly from the bottle on your hands, if need be.July 1, 2012 9:38 am at 9:38 am #882199
I usually do one of these when in such a situation:
1) Take mezonos things.
2) Use hygienic wipes to clean your hands and say “al nekiyas yadayim”.
3) Wash just once, just fingers, with a tiny little bit of water.July 1, 2012 11:34 am at 11:34 am #882200
You can use the water for washing, then drink it.
If you need this water to survive, then do not waste it for anything else.
If you do not need this water to keep hydrated, then yo must use it for washing.
However, if you do not have water with you, or need the water to stay hydrated, you must search or water, 18 min if it’s out of your way, 72 min if it is in your way.
If however you are sure that you will not find water, there is no need to wait.
Keep in mind, this is only bshas hadchak. I don’t think that you shoul go hiking and put yourself into a Bshas hadchak situationJuly 1, 2012 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #882201
Take mezonos rolls.July 1, 2012 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #882202
If you have bear spray, there must be bears around. If there are bears, there is a body of water. Find the water and use that for washing. If doesn’t have to be drinkable.July 1, 2012 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #882203
But, there is a large difference between needing it to survive, and not needing it. And that’s where the question is.
The halacha is not that you can only eat without washing if you are going to die; it is if there will be a large inconvenience. It delineates the inconvenience of travel, but does not talk about this inconvenience. So I’m wondering how it translates.
I asked here because I think its a funny question, and also because someone may have run across a teshuva that discusses something similar.
(I wonder why R’ Chaim doesn’t talk about it in that piece about y’hareig v’al yaavor. If they didn’t have enough water, then how was the guy going to wash before making the bracha on killing the other guy as a rodef?)July 1, 2012 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #882204
If you have something to put the bread in and you dont touch it you dont have to wash.July 1, 2012 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #882205
If you have bear spray, there must be bears around.
Why? Does bear spray attract bears? I thought it was to keep them away.
(Actually, it does attract them also. They like it as long as its not being sprayed in their face. I heard a story about some hikers who thought it was repellent and sprayed it all over their tent. Well, they came back and the bears were rolling around in it.)July 1, 2012 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #882206
i love coffeParticipant
“You can use the water for washing, then drink it.”
WHAT?! I thought it was dangerous to drink from the water that one uses to wash their hands with. That’s why we make sure to dry our hands before we touch bread.July 1, 2012 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #882207
Boich svara time.
The general klal with d’rabbanans is that you can ignore them b’kum v’aseh for a choleh she’en bo sakana and kal v’chomer b’shev v’al ta’aseh. Dehydration is considered a choleh she’en bo sakana for the rabbinic fast days, so why not for netilas yadayim as well?July 1, 2012 5:29 pm at 5:29 pm #882208
Itche: I’d imagine so also, and that’s why I do it. (I don’t wash unless there is water nearby. Often, there is, and then we choose to eat by the water anyway.)
But I’d like to see someone discuss it. Preferably in the context of making a bracha before killing the guy who is with you in the desert and trying to take your water.July 1, 2012 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #882209
Walk 72 minutes and drink the water.
You can Passul the water by using it for anything. Heat up your pocket knife and dip it in the water, and you got it all to yourself.
Also, if you aren’t alone you can be Mafkir it to your friend and he’ll let you drink from it. you might be Mechuyav to buy it off him, but since there is no water nearby the price will be more than a Chomesh, anyhow. Otherwise use your friend to be Zoche the water for a Goyeshe friend who would let you drink but you’d have to ask before using it to wash.
Just for the record: Al Nekiyas yadayim is good for the morning, where the Takana is about Chadashim labkarim or Mekomos Mechusim. Where you need Tahara nothing will help.July 1, 2012 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #882210
ItcheSrulik -“Boich svara time.
The general klal with d’rabbanans is that you can ignore them b’kum v’aseh for a choleh she’en bo sakana and kal v’chomer b’shev v’al ta’aseh. Dehydration is considered a choleh she’en bo sakana for the rabbinic fast days, so why not for netilas yadayim as well?”
Yes you said it. A Boich Svara.
Dehydration at a certain level is Sakonas Nefoshos. Unless you’re an expert in medicine you probably don’t know the difference between dangerous dehydration and not -so any level of dehydration is a Sofek Sakana.July 1, 2012 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #882211
i love coffee,
Neggel Vasser of the morning is a sakana to drink or walk on. Neggel vasser from a Seuda is not a Sakana. It has nothing to do with Ruach Ra. You dry your hands before eating because you aren’t supposed to eat bread with wet hands. The Gemara compares it to eating Tamei. Rashi explains that it is disgusting.
Some hold that drying is a part of Netilas Yadayim and that even allowing them to hang dry is not enough.July 1, 2012 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #882212
PBA -“So but what if you have water with you?”
Since this was planned -you should have planned water for washing.
What I would have done is taken water for drinking in one of those camel backs & filled a canteen for washing. In this heat using your canteen for washing is taking undue chances, if you don’t have a camel back container.July 1, 2012 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #882213
I agree with Itche that you shouldn’t be left without water. You shouldn’t depend on getting somewhere 45 minutes away. But, to be safe, you can do my Eitza of Passuling the water.July 1, 2012 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #882214
We dry our hands, since water can become Tamah (midrabanan)July 1, 2012 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #882215
I love coffee: That’s only if Ruach Ra’ah is a reason for the washing, which is not the case for Hamotzi before bread.
PBA: I believe you can be Masneh the Al Netilas Yadayim all day even if your hands get dirty so long as they don’t get dirty in certain ways.July 1, 2012 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #882216
Sam: I agree, but my hands do get dirty throughout the day.
I carry 2 liters of water in my bladder, which goes inside my backpack, and refill it from streams along the way, when we pass them and it seems wise to. But I need that water for drinking–if I didn’t think I needed so much, I would carry less. Water weighs about 8.5 pounds per gallon, and I want my backpack to be under 20 lbs.July 1, 2012 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #882217
PBA – You didn’t understand me – carry a small canteen on your waist or in your pocket for washing. (Besides the drinking water.)July 1, 2012 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #882218
PBA: You can also wear gloves while you eat B’dieved. I think that’s a Rama somewhere, isn’t it?July 1, 2012 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #882220
What gives you the right to limit your backpack to under an arbitrary 20 lbs., at the cost of not bringing sufficient water to wash with?July 1, 2012 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #882221
Health: I could also just put that canteen also in my backpack, where it would be easier to carry.
Csar: That part is b’pheirush halacha. You are not m’chuyav to carry water with you so that you will be able to wash.July 1, 2012 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #882222
I think that the glove reference is if once wants to keep the hands clean all day, so that there is no misasik.
If you pass through streams, you can Toivel your hands, according to some poskem it is good enough.
if it is kosher for Mikva, then it is good according to most poskim.July 1, 2012 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #882223
you can carry an inflatable Keili, and use it once you reach the stream to wash.
I am not sure that one is allowed to himself in a position of Shas hadchak just for pleasure.July 1, 2012 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #882224
cents: the keili is not the problem; I carry a cup. The problem is that we may be hungry and be hours away from the next water.July 1, 2012 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #882225
PBA -“Health: I could also just put that canteen also in my backpack, where it would be easier to carry.”
Obviously, you could. And you could carry more water in your camel back. But I got the impression you didn’t want to carry more on your back. A small canteen elsewhere would not be a burden.
You seem to be looking for a Heter beforehand. I don’t think there is one.
But once a person is hiking and they feel hungry and the water they have is for drinking – esp. in hot weather -they should eat and drink without getting water to wash.
Why? Maybe they can make it to the next waterhole? Because once in this situation it’s a Sofek Sakana and you wouldn’t be allowed to wait. Yes, water alone is Not always sufficient to sustain you -you need calories (& lytes).
So try to carry extra water with you. If you forgot or miscalculated – you must eat and drink without delay.
Just clean your hands and don’t touch the bread.
I just saw a case of Heat exhaustion yesterday. And this is with electricity in town and a few feet from a house where he could have cooled off and taken in water and other stuff he needed. Instead he had to go to the hospital.
There is a reason it says “…Nafeshoysachem MEOD”.
“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”July 1, 2012 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #882226
Health: So I’m pretty certain that I don’t have to carry more water with me, because if so, the poskim would bring that down in the discussion about the guy who is traveling with no water, and say that a person should really carry water.
I think the question is only once I am there, and I have water and want to eat. Obviously, if I need the water to avoid getting sick, I am fine.
The question is what if I need to water to avoid being uncomfortable. That is similar to the discussion in the shulchan aruch about they guy being hungry and not wanting to wait an hour and a half to eat. The halacha is that he can eat as long as he is very hungry–even though he will not get sick at all! Because he will be uncomfortable.
I just don’t have a rubric for comparing this discomfort with that discomfort.July 1, 2012 8:01 pm at 8:01 pm #882227
PBA -“The question is what if I need to water to avoid being uncomfortable.”
This is your mistake. Your situation of hiking, esp. in hot weather -there is no way to know if your hunger/thirst pangs are due to your obesity (if you’re fat) or due to bodily needs. So since there is no way to know -you’d be Mechuyav to eat and drink.
I don’t know even I ran tests -if I’d be able to tell. So now you’re in a Sofek Sakana whether you realize it or not.
Whether you’re allowed to go hiking without water to wash in the first place is something you have to ask your LOR!July 1, 2012 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #882228
If there is no water within the next 72 minutes, he does not have to wait, rather he can eat right away.
I think that the question boils down to if he is allowed to participate in tis endeavor or not.
Using the water, not an option, since he needs I to drink.
Therefore, the question is if someone is allowed to put himself in such a situation lichatchila.
As far as I remember, it is not permitted. Only bshas hadchak.July 1, 2012 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #882229
I just re read PBAs original post.
If someone is already in middle of the way/hike and wants to eat bread and knows for a fact that the is no water within the next three mil (72 min).
In my personal opinion, he should not use the water for shing the hands, since he will have no water left for survival. (since he knows that the is no other water in the area, hiking without water is definatley dangerous).
However, he has the option to wash and save the water for drinking.
It’s not a real tumah.July 1, 2012 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #882230
PBA: I’ll look into it. It probably exists. Another heter I’ve seen is moist wipes. Supposedly some guy who liked camping worked out that if you use the smallest possible shiur of revi’is you can “wash” with 4 of them per hand. I don’t know how he did the math or whether he even took into account that the other chemicals might pasul the water in the wipes.July 2, 2012 12:47 am at 12:47 am #882231
Regarding the issue of whether I can put myself in the situation ???????:
I am certain I can. The shulchan aruch talks about when a traveler can eat without washing, and nobody suggests there that there is a tayna on him for not carrying water, or that it makes a difference why he is traveling.July 2, 2012 1:58 am at 1:58 am #882232
You can wash with less than a revi’s. A revi’s is enough for two hands.
The problem with wipes.
A. It’s not a Kelli, which is a must by netilas yedayim.
B. as you mentioned, there are other stuff besides water, whatever Pasuls a mikveh, Pasuls for netilas yedayim.July 2, 2012 2:00 am at 2:00 am #882233
I don the shulchan aruch in front of me, however I recall that when I learned simian 159 I was mentioned that this is only bshas hadchak. And not for pleasure Hikes.July 2, 2012 2:10 am at 2:10 am #882234
It says it is only if you are very hungry, but it doesn’t qualify what kind of travel it is.July 2, 2012 2:14 am at 2:14 am #882235
Yes, 8 wipes makes a reviis according to the smallest shita (not, R’ Chaim Na’ah)July 2, 2012 5:04 am at 5:04 am #882236
Without a Reviis it is not Netilas Yadayim. The water becomes tamei from your hand and isn’t Metaher it. A reviis is the magic Shiur that acts like a portable Mikva, and is metaher the hand. Once you have a Reviis, it is good for two hands, and in fact many pairs of hands.
By the way, from the story of Rabbi Akiva you see that you don’t have to use drinking water for washing.
I mentioned walking 72 minutes because at that point, after drinking your water, you might be within 4 Mil of water.July 2, 2012 10:50 am at 10:50 am #882237
You don’t need a revi’s.
That’s why we wash two times each hand. Once to get it tahor, but the water sbecomes tomei. The second time is metaher the hand and the water stays tahor.
When you have a revi’s, the water never gets tomei.
Its called mayim reshonim.July 2, 2012 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #882238
PBA- How do you have service out there?July 2, 2012 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #882239
PBA got himself a Blackberry, (he probably found it in Starbucks)
if you notice, his posts are much shorter than they used to be.
looks like he has a hard time using the keyboard on the Blackberry.
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