November 10, 2011 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #600458
When it becomes necessary to call shomrim/police on someone (according to your rav), should one take into account if the perpetrator has a family who will be hurt? Or do we say protect the innocent and don’t let this guy use his family as a shield? How does one determine whose blood is redder?November 10, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #8256382scentsParticipant
I really depends on the details of the case.
I was once told by someone in the works, that there are neighborhoods, which have street justice.
they take care of their own problems. Not with banning the perpetrator from the shul.. rather by making sure that he will not physically be able to harm anyone!November 10, 2011 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #825639soliekMember
whats the casE?November 10, 2011 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #825640bptParticipant
Depending on the crime. But understand, once the police are called, there is no stopping that snowball. The agencies and such get called in, and it gets very ugly.
Shomrim are in many cases a smarter move. If they think its over the top, they’ll call in the brass. Otherwise, they can handle it themselvesNovember 10, 2011 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #825641popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think you do it, and let the court and prosecutor decide what to do. That is their job, after all.November 10, 2011 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #825642yitayningwutParticipant
You have to take everything into consideration. There is no one-size-fits-all answer. Another reason to have a rav.November 10, 2011 11:44 pm at 11:44 pm #825643
Ask the same Rav that you originally asked…November 11, 2011 2:53 am at 2:53 am #825644MiddlePathParticipant
In such a situation, it’s difficult to have no one get hurt. For example, in my father’s situation, the outcome probably saved many innocent people, which is wonderful, but I, and my family, suffered pretty badly. I’m thankful we turned out alright. Many people would not. The most one can do is to take the best action that will have the smallest negative effect on the fewest amount of people. And every scenario is different.November 11, 2011 3:18 am at 3:18 am #8256452scentsParticipant
If its a real case. I go with PBA. Report it!November 11, 2011 4:18 am at 4:18 am #825646Sam2Participant
If your Rav says it’s necessary then it’s necessary.
The Gemara says that someone who asks a Shaila about Pikuach Nefesh on Shabbos is a Shofech Damim and the Rav who is asked is Meguneh. I don’t see why this would be so different. There is a life at stake. Why would you waste time asking Shailos or worrying about possible fallout?November 11, 2011 5:08 am at 5:08 am #825647apushatayidParticipant
go to torahanytime.com and look for a lecture from Rav Noach Isaac Oelbaum on the topic. He discusses limaase when one may (not only may, is obligated) go to the authorities.November 11, 2011 8:21 am at 8:21 am #825648aries2756Participant
You are asking a very vague question so you can’t expect a straight forward answer. If you are talking about a molester, rapist or murderer you should definitely go straight to the police to keep him from harming anyone else. If you are talking about a ganuf go speak to a Rav.November 11, 2011 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #825649yungerman1Participant
Jothar- If your Rav says its necessary then you follow what he says. Only Hashem takes into account how punishment will affect others, we (Bais Din) do not.
In Shemos when Moshe killed the Mitzri that was hitting a Yid, the pasuk says ???????? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ????? which we darshan to mean he saw that no good would come out of him or his descendants. The question is raised that why did Moshe do that, if the Mitzri deserved to die we dont look at anything else? An answer given is that since he used the ?? ?????? to kill it was like ???? ???? ???? which does make other considerations.November 11, 2011 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #825650
Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful answers. I will need to speak to my rov again. It’s good to know that Shomrim can be relied upon to do the right thing. Crime must be stopped.November 11, 2011 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #825651BTGuyParticipant
When it becomes necessary to call shomrim/police, there will be other issues that will negatively impact upon the family. It’s a bad situation. But if a Rav said it is appropriate, then it must be very serious, then you are stopping a greater problem than the subsequent fallout. In the long-run, one may help address a problem that can be dealt with objectively. But, I imagine calling the police, this would have to be a very very very serious matter.November 11, 2011 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #825652chaimboruchMember
is this something pressing that must be reported right away? such as violence? then report it to shomrim/police as it make be classified as pikuach nefesh?
is it that you dont like him, and you think he stole from you then go to a rov, discuss your situation, and the rov will probably call him in, and give him a warning that he needs therapy and if he fails he will be reported.
WHen you as a rav, be wary, some rabonim will not let you report anything. Depending on the crime such as molesting, there are prominent rabonim, that will let you go straight to the police, as our Torah system, does not have a system that enables us to deal with it correctly in today’s day and age. We can give warnings but it does not help.
Similar to a battered woman, she knows she was beaten up so why stay with this guy?? because he says he loves her, and then buys flowers.. and then makes her feel she has no one else in the world but him….
Well molesters and criminals do that to rabonim, they say we did nothing wrong… we actually did them a favor, we watched the kid.. we were making sure the jewelry does not get taken by someone else, and they are full of excuses…..November 11, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #825654yungerman1Participant
I obviously dont know the particulars but why call Shomrim if you can call 911? Its not an emergency, and it doesnt sound like someone is stealing bikes that you would want Shomrim to keep a lookout for this guy. And if its a molester you sure as better report it to 911 ASAPNovember 11, 2011 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #825655TheGoqParticipant
If we are talking about the Penn State situation they clearly got in trouble because they tried to cover it up and therefore many more boys were harmed, it is the law that if you know about abuse you must tell the authorities.November 11, 2011 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #825656ZosHaTorahParticipant
So with Penn State, there are people involved there who will likely end up in jail, because they knew of the abuse, and reported it “internally” to the school’s administartion, but not to the actual police.
It’s a good moshel for the original poster’s question here. I would think telling shomrim is no better than reporting it “internally,” and by doing so and not telling the police, not only are you further harming the victim, but you may be victimizing yourself, too.
If a Yid is to go to jail in this situation, there’s no reason it should be you and the abuser. Better one Jew in jail than two. Whatever the abuse is, eventually it will be found out by the proper authorities, and if you fail to act properly, you’re likely chaiv.November 11, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #8256572qwertyParticipant
Just make sure to verify that its a real situation and not someone making up a story just to get at someone.
Everyone here is ready to call authorities as soon as they hear any rumors. But keep in mind that some of the cases you read on the news about turn out to be false accusations.November 11, 2011 6:55 pm at 6:55 pm #825658
Re: Penn State, abuse and reporting-
Let’s remember that the Torah and halacha shape our morals and ethics, and not the other way around. As a survivor, I will be the first to say that abusers must be stopped at all costs, but what is legally considered mandated reporting may not be so according to Halacha.November 11, 2011 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #825659BTGuyParticipant
Hi Jothar: You think your Rov was not sure of his answer the first time you spoke to him? You have to be careful in these matters, which it seems you are doing by asking again. I hope you are not jumping the gun on something.
Do you “suspect” something is going on? Or, the fact is something is going on? If something is going on, and you know for sure, and you really know for sure, the answer is clear. Please help the victim.
You are involved at this point and I suggest you possibly go down and talk to a police officer for recommendation on how to handle this professionally. Dont mention names; dont sign anything. See how they approach it. And do it soon.
Hatzlacha!November 11, 2011 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #825660ZosHaTorahParticipant
So I’m aware of the situations a Jew must give up their life in order to not transgress halacha. Are there situations where a Jew must go to jail in order not to trangress halacha?November 11, 2011 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #825661mikehall12382Member
If you are asking the question then u should call the police….your first call is to the police, then your RAV, not the other way around….lets stop trying to cover things up….November 11, 2011 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #825662zahavasdadParticipant
Who says the Halacha says you are not supposed to report an abuser to the police?
I am sure there are some who say you are supposed to ask a rav first, but there are other who say you CAN report to the police and get the abuser out of the community.November 11, 2011 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #825663Sam2Participant
Jail in America is not Pikuach Nefesh. A Jew would have to risk jail to avoid violating any Lo Sa’aseh D’Oraisa. Being Mevatel and Asei is a complicated issue and I am not qualified to offer anywhere near an opinion on it.November 11, 2011 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #825664
You’re right, as long as we know that the allegations are true and that there is danger of it happening again.November 13, 2011 6:05 am at 6:05 am #825665
Would there be a difference in shomrim vs police? eg, shomrim has rabbonim and I can trust them to do what’s right and let them ask the shailos?November 13, 2011 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #825666zahavasdadParticipant
Truthfully this thread bothered me, especially with what happend at Penn State
Without going into details but a coach walked in on someone doing the wrong thing.
If you walk in on someone doing the wrong thing, you should have to ask a Rov what to do?
If I walked in on someone doing the wrong thing, I would try to stop it of at least call the Police.
If you walked in on someone, Would you call your rav or call the police?
I also asked my rov about it and he said more and more poskim are agreeing that its not being a Moiser turning in such people.
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