Can a Golem Speak?

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  • #608894

    ..another good question..

    (maybe should I change to “shadows of the golem”?)

    #944979

    playtime
    Member

    not coherently

    (sorry ’bout that)

    #944980

    old man
    Participant

    “Can a Golem Speak?”

    There is not nor was there ever such a creature, so the question can not be answered.

    #944981

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    I’ll ask the first golem that I see. Will let you know what he says.

    #944982

    I just met one; he could speak though he got very insulted when I called him a golem.

    #944983

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    I asked my pet Golem and he shook his head no.

    #944984

    Bendit
    Participant

    have you ever heard of the mharal from prauge he had a golem but they can`t speak

    #944985

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There is not nor was there ever such a creature, so the question can not be answered.

    Sanhedrin 65b

    #944986

    Logician
    Participant

    more recently – R’ Chaim Volozhiner writes that the Gra began to make one at age twelve, but was told to stop.

    #944987

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Bendit, there’s quite a controversy over whether it actually happened.

    Logician, that does not contradict old man’s assertion; the Gemara does (btw, welcome back).

    #944988

    BSD
    Member

    idk if he can speak but i am sure he can post

    #944989

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I have a Golem in my house

    (They sell them all over the tourist shops in Prague)

    he does not speak

    #944990

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Hath not a Golem eyes? Hath not a Golem hands,

    organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same

    food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases,

    heal’d by the same means, warm’d and cool’d by the same winter

    and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If

    you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

    And if you wrong us, do we not revenge? If we are like you in the

    rest, we will resemble you in that.

    #944991

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Always get paid in cash from a golem i hear when they are angry the like to bounce Czechs.

    #944992

    Old man: ?? ????? ???? ????. There were plenty of reported instances (of real ones)

    Me? maybe I’m a Golem d’Rabbanan. (????????? ?????). Only a d’rabanan because it comes from a limud, ???? ?? ??? ???? ???. (really?)

    #944993

    old man
    Participant

    Sanhedrin 65b

    Yes, of course. Rashi on the daf too is well known.

    It was a dream.

    And of course, the story from Rav Chaim Volozhiner is a straw man story, literally. The story of the Maharal was concocted a bit over 100 years ago. It never happened, but it sure is good for business.There are other similar legendary stories, all legendary.

    This issue has been discussed off and on for some time. A golem is impossible to create because humans cannot create yesh me’ayin. Allegories, meshalim, dreams, hallucinations, concocted stories for educational purposes, all are possibilities. But actual? No.

    #944994

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Golem: Plenty? I know of 2, neither of which were documented well at all.

    Old Man: No offense intended, because I have great respect for you, but I am going to call you out on something here. It is a flaw in the current rationalist thought that it is taken too far. Judaism (for the most part) believes in the supernatural. Thus, unless you want to claim to be an entirely Maimonidean rationalist (which I don’t think anyone is nowadays, but I guess you have what to rely on if that’s what you claim), you have taken rationalism too far. The Gemara is full of stories of the supernatural. Unless you want to say (like the Rambam) that every single one was a Mashal or something like that, there is no reason to deny the existence of a Golem. See also SHU”T Chacham Tzvi Siman 63 (maybe 93?), if I recall correctly.

    #944995

    nitpicker
    Participant

    but there is good reason to deny the existence of the maharal’s golem in particular.

    #944996

    nitpicker
    Participant

    oh and also, creating a golem has nothing to do with creating

    yesh ma’ayin.

    #944997

    I’ve no idea what the old man is writing. What Rashi?!?

    Can one just laugh at sugya like that. Chayav – no, it was really patur, only in a dream it appears chayav.

    Gemarah repeats a few times where tzadikim would create a creature on erev shabbos lkovod shabbos. (by holy forces, intoning the names of Hashem) Sure, one might laugh, a dream, they thought they were learning and creating, they dreamed they were eating and enjoying. Sure. And the gemarah sees fit to record their fantasies for posterity.

    #944998

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    There are exact instructions on how to create a golem… the only problem is that in order to create it you have to be a complete yorei shamayim, and a complete yorei shamayim would never make one.

    #944999

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In Prague the Golem has become big business. They sell statues of the Golem everywhere, they give Golem Tours (Its a Ghost / Haunted / Golem Tour) and there is even a treif restaurant with the name Golem.

    If they would ever open up the Attic to the Starnova Synagogue they could charge huge sums to visit and it would sell out

    #945000

    Sam2: You’re right, not documented, recorded. There’s a reason for that, if I may. One who is indeed capable of creating one, would not trumpet his greatness. ?????? ????. And yes Nitpiker, I’m aware of that controversy. But it neither adds nor detracts from the great stature and holiness of the Maharal. His many seforim testify to his vast greatness.

    #945001

    tzaddiq
    Member

    they say golems post here in the CR quite frequently.

    just another reason why you should stay off the ‘net

    #945002

    tzaddiq: I have no idea what you’re talking about.

    #945003

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Old man, maybe you didn’t really post that. Maybe I just dreamt it.

    #945004

    playtime
    Member

    Old man, you don’t begin to know what you’re talking about. Have you ever heard of Sefer Hayetzira?

    Probably not.

    “A dream…yesh me’ayin”

    Your logic is convoluted, which reminds me of your past posts…

    There is no question that the Maharal had the capability to create a Golem. The Kli Yakar writes of miracles that the Maharal preformed.

    Did it really happen? Insufficient documentation? Fine.

    #945005

    old man
    Participant

    A few points:

    1. To Sam2, the respect is mutual. I contend forcefully that there was never nor can there be a golem. Man creating a living creature is a nonstarter, no matter what the spiritual level of said man is. Even for the believers in man performing supernatural acts, creation is not on the list , at least for me.

    2. To the golem speaks: Rashi states that the golem in Sanhedrin 65: was created using combinations of Shem Hashem. Please look it up, it’s right there, I’m not sure what was unclear about mentioning it.

    3. There are instructions in how to create a golem. These instructions when followed exactly, will not produce a golem. That HAS been documented.

    #945006

    nitpicker
    Participant

    to Talmud

    while it is evident that the maharal was on a level to create a golem, the evidence suggests that he did not, not merely a lack of evidence that he did.

    this is as I remember it, I can’t point you to sources.

    first, several biographies written just after his lifetime make no mention of it, even one written by a son or son-in-law.

    second, the whole legend of the golem was created by someone who claimed to have found an old sefer in a library called something like niflaos maharal. this person already had a record as a forger.

    that is the only source for the maharal golem story.

    again I do not argue that he had the power to do so, only that in fact, there is less than reason to believe that he did.

    #945007

    old man: Exactly as you wrote, the great people actually CREATED a GOLEM using combinations of Shem Hashem. No sleep, no dream. A real live kicking (not talking) human form. Kindly read what you wrote.

    “Even for the believers..” – Truly, truly, I believe in everything Torah says. Includes Torah sheb’al peh.

    (And why would you be fighting a golem? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????)

    #945008

    PBT
    Member

    I’ve never tried, so I don’t know.

    #945009

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Many of the Medrashim cannot possibly be true. Many are contradictory .

    Many were written in a code so that outsiders could not understand.

    Many were also subject to censors as well

    #945010

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, it’s a clear Gemara. If someone wants to say it’s not literal, the burden of proof is on them.

    #945011

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    . There are instructions in how to create a golem. These instructions when followed exactly, will not produce a golem. That HAS been documented.

    How? They have to be done by a real yorei shamayim or else it won’t work. How can you prove that the person who tried it was a true yorei shamayim?

    #945012

    playtime
    Member

    nitpicker- There are skeptics to every claim, and that’s perfectly fine. But to take the opposite position on every claim, purporting that the evidence is on YOUR side, is blatantly incorrect.

    There is a famous adage from the Steipler Goan, who said, “If you believe every tale you hear you are a heretic, and if you believe that every tale couldn’t have occurred, you are a heretic as well.

    The same Steipler Goan, in his Sefer Hayei Olam writes, “It is known that the Maharal produced a Golem”

    The Steipler was known to have Ruach Hakodesh.

    This is not to say that every tale of the Golem is true. But that the Maharal did create a Golem.

    old man, and nitpicker- your stances on many issues are completely unsupported, and your backward reasoning is very revealing of argumentative people who are brutally unlearned.

    zahavasdad- “Many of the Medrashim cannot possibly be true. Many are contradictory”

    -The first subscription of a true torah learner is that there are smarter and greater men out there, giants of torah, who can reconcile contradictions that thou cannot.

    “Many were written in a code so that outsiders could not understand many were also subject to censors as well”

    Before we effectively denounce all Jewish writings as possibly altered, and in-understandable, we must concede to the Torah Giants who are able to read and interpret the Amoraic writings effectively. The Vilna Gaon, Rashash, and others were able to discern the true text from altered writings and misprints, solely through their torah wisdom.

    #945013

    🐵 ⌨ Gamanit
    Participant

    talmud+1

    #945014

    nitpicker
    Participant

    to Talmud

    blatantly incorrect! blatantly!?

    I wish I could remember the name of the forger. I tell you he had already been caught . there is only one source for the story, a supposed find in a library many years after the maharal.

    a) that isn’t enough and b) a bad source at that.

    and don’t group me with old man on this, my stance on this issue is nothing like his.

    and also to attribute that quote about believing stories to the Steipler is laughable. ( hedging as usual I say that it is possible that he subscribed to it and repeated it, but it is not his statement. that was a hedge, but I think it more likely it is just a mis-attribution )

    #945015

    nitpicker
    Participant

    “The Vilna Gaon, Rashash, and others were able to discern the true text from altered writings and misprints, solely through their torah wisdom. “

    Not solely, but by comparing available versions and versions quoted . and THEN applying their torah wisdom.

    there are stories about some of the giants mentioned bristling at the idea that they edited without source.

    #945016

    Some Common Sense
    Participant

    In these concepts, those who know don’t say and those who don’t know say. Golem are possible.

    #945017

    abiecab
    Participant

    The story of the Maharal’s Golem was known all along from the time of the Maharal and immediately thereafter. The hogwash that it only became known later when someone wrote stories is fallacious.

    #945018

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Maharal Im sure was a great Anuv. What do you think would be his reaction if he could come alive today

    He is probably the most famous Rabbi of the Central/Eastern European Era. He is not famous for any Sefer or Pshats, He is famous for making a Golem. He is one of the most famous residents of Prague, In fact so famous there is a statue of him in the City hall, Probably the only Rabbi to have a Statue in a European Capital City Hall.

    What would be his reaction?

    #945019

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Nitpicker, Chaim Bloch, and/or Yudl Rosenberg.

    #945020

    nitpicker
    Participant

    “He is probably the most famous Rabbi of the Central/Eastern European Era. He is not famous for any Sefer or Pshats, He is famous for making a Golem.”

    neither statement is true.

    incidentally, Yaakov dovid Shulman, a contemporary author of biographies, says in his book about the maharal that the golem legend is unsupported. then he includes for the sake of completeness (and to fill up a chapter) one of the golem stories.

    #945021

    nitpicker
    Participant

    and thanks to daas yochid.

    yidl Rosenberg was the name I had heard. not familiar with the other version.

    #945022

    playtime
    Member

    nitpicker- “and also to attribute that quote about believing stories to the Steipler is laughable…”

    It is attributed to him- don’t know if there are other sources before, but let me find the main topic for you-

    The same Steipler Goan, in his Sefer Hayei Olam writes, “It is known that the Maharal produced a Golem”

    (and I know you wish your argument wasn’t blatantly incorrect;)

    #945023

    nitpicker
    Participant

    certainly not ‘blatantly’.

    #945024

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Nitpicker, the Golem legend is way older than Reb Yiddel Rosenberg. The auther of Frankenstine said she got the idea from the Golem story. It is famously mentioned in the Bnei Yisaschar that the Maharal used the Sefer Yetzira. There are a few other stories about the Golem.

    One of the famous “proofs” that he didn’t (usually a great undertaking) make one is that “his Talmid Reb Dovid Ganz” doesn’t mention it. I don’t know who ever made him a close Talmid, if there were any. Does he ever quote a Pshat from the Maharal? Even the Tosafos Yom Tov, who is often called a Talmid of the Maharal, doesn’t quote anything from the Maharal that is not from the Sefarim.

    Second of all, his entry on the Maharal is in the Jewish year 252, when the Maharal came back to Prague to be the Rav.

    True, we can’t trace the story back. Some say that perhaps the Golem of Reb Eliyahu Baal Shem, which we know about, was confused with the Maharal, since Reb Eliyahu Baal Shem also lived in Prague eventualy.

    Perhaps it was only known to the non-Jews, who had personal experience.

    #945025

    nitpicker
    Participant

    look, this isn’t even an important point to me and I don’t know how I got so embroiled in an argument about it. the maharals greatness is not lessened if he did not make a golem. I believe he could have done so had he wanted to.

    it does makes a difference to those who are convinced that a golem is impossible. I not one of those, and whether or not the maharal made one is just a small point of history to be clarified.

    I am surprised to learn the Steipler believed in the maharal’s golem which will cause me to soften my opinion somewhat.

    #945026

    Sam2
    Participant

    Talmud, DY, etc: Just be careful in how strongly you put down the rationalists here. They have the Rambam in their corner. I agree that the Rambam’s super-rationalist view is a minority (and certainly nowadays), but it is not something that you can brush off as closed-minded or blatantly wrong.

    #945027

    rebdoniel
    Member

    @sam2,

    It is also a hashkafa which some leading gaonim hold by, including Hakham Faur, Rabbi Chait, Yeshiva Bnei Torah, etc.

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