Can anyone explain going to Uman?

It’s the right thing for Breslover Chasidim.

There are several points to consider:

#1 – Going to a Rebbe is something you can only understand, if you’ve been to one yourself. And I don’t mean going as a sightseer; I mean going like you mean it.

#2 – Wives and kids manage quite well without us, for a short period of time. Most current example? The scene in Sullivan County. Besides, its believed (at least by chassidim) that going to a rebbe (or in this case, a kever) fuels your entire year, so going away for 5-10 days does not hurt the wife/kids… it helps.

#3 – As far as leaving EY, that I annot comment on, as I live in chutz.

#4 – Money to the local Uman economy, there I agree with you. That is sinful, but unavoidable. But no worse than buying a german car, or hiring a polish goyta. Sad, but a fact of life.

#5 – Aniyim – They get the $$ they need anyways, so the money spent going to a rebbe does not affect the aniyim. And, many “aniyim” make the trip to the rebbe themselves, so the $$ spent by working people going to the rebbe is well within their rights. (as if they need to obtain society’s permission, which they don’t).

Lastly, go one time and you will understand. I have yet to make the trip to Uman myself, but I have been to places where davening is on a different plane than it is in my hometown, and there is no comparision. The people, the place, the time, all these things add up to an experience that you need to be in it to understand it.

“Why shopuld it bother you at all what someone else does with their time , etc? “

– Because it is making a cultish minhag that was never existent – not in theory, not in practice (if I’m wrong, then find me the source in Shas and poskim). Outside of Breslov, no one does this nor talks about it.

– That “minhag” is then pushed on others, and so the “minhag” spreads.

– It is supporting people that killed and hate my people.

– It’s a waste of money that causes others to squander money that would have been spent for tzedakah. In other words, ther is only so much money available to the community at large. When some is lost, it’s lost from all available money in the community.

But when a great tzaddik says to do something, and you follow that tzaddik, you can and should do it.

Can I rely on you for that? I should really do something because a tzaddik says it’s a good idea or meritorious to do so?

The Wolf

Going to Kevarim on Eruv Rosh HaShanah is not a new minhag. I wish I knew Shulchan Aruch and the Nosei Keilim by heart but I don’t however I have seen it the Minhag written about there see Pri Megadim I believe. Interestingly, the Breslover Chassidim who were in Poland and could not gather in Uman at the time would gather in Chochmei Lublin with Reb Meir Shapiro who was the Baal Tokeah in the Breslov Minyan. He also used to lead them Erev Rosh HaShanah to the grave of the Chozeh because they couldn’t go to Uman.

As far as leaving Eretz Yisrael for kevavrim, the Poskim speak about it:

Birkei Yosef (OC 568:1): If one lives in Eretz Yisrael and desires to prostrate on graves of Tzadikim in Chutz la’Aretz, or he lives in Yerushalayim and desires to go to graves of Tzadikim (elsewhere) in Eretz Yisrael, he may go on condition to return (Pri ha’Aretz 3:6:14, in some editions 3:10:7).

Sedei Chemed (1, Ma’areches Aleph): One may leave Eretz Yisrael to prostrate on the graves of Tzadikim, for it is a great Mitzvah.

“MDG: It really is none of your business. “

When money is lost from the community, it effects all of us.

“Whatever someone wants to give to tzedaka, they give, not a penny more or less.”

I do give more when people ask for more. You can ask those that knock on my door. I find it hard to say no when people sincerely ask. I’m sure many others are like that.

First of all you wont understand until you truly want to understand why people go to uman. If you really are interested you might want to learn a little about Rebbe Nachman Z’l before you make assumptions. The same way your so concerned about other peoples money and why non Breslovers are going to uman, consider the fact that every lag b’omer thousand of people spend money and travel hours to Meron to dance and daven when they have nerver learnt a zohar or anything from Reb Shimion Bar Yochai. Kivrei Tzadikim DO have a kedushah, if you think not then I doubt you find any value davening by Me’aras Hamachpela, kever Rachel Etc.. And as yytz already quoted from (Likutei Morahan 2:109) that the graves of tzaddikim have the kedushah of eretz yisroel, hows that for a source?? Just to share some light, Rebbe Nachman Z’l told his chassidim that ANYONE who comes to him on Rosh Hashana and gives pruta of charity and says the ten psalms of Tikkun Haklali he will do everything in his power to intercede on there behalf for a better judgement. Now what das torah wouldn’t want that? Think of it as going to the best lawyer that ever was once a year for a meeting and to be sure he will testify on your behalf. And for all those who are so concerned about the wives, have youi asked a Breslover wife if she minds??? Or are you just assuming they have a problem with their husbands going?? Check out breslovtorah.com they have many incredible shiurim, all in english great quality and a vast well of Torah. Enjoy, I mean no offense just trying to make the picture a little clearer.

I know i should just google this but where is Uman?

I would like to ask BPT a question –

You say that women and children get along without the husband/father perfectly fine for short periods of time and you use the example of what is going on right now in Sullivan County. Can you please tell me what that has to do with being away from your family on Rosh Hashanah,not being together during the Yomim Tovim. Who makes kiddush/havdalah for these families that are left behind?

While I have no way to understand what the East Coast summer trips to the Catskills tradition is all about since I’m from LA and live in Yerushalayim, this issue to me is totally different than being away during the week.

“Experience it before you challenge it. “

That’s like saying I once heard, “Don’t condemn a sin until you’ve tried it.”

Wolf: Yes, that’s right. It’s a core principle of chassidus that it is important to have a connection with a tzaddik, who gives you advice (above and beyond making halachic rulings) about how to achieve your tikkun, your neshama’s purpose in the world. When you have a connection to a tzaddik, and he gives you advice, of course you take it! And Rebbe Nachman’s strong advice to his followers was to come to his kever on Rosh HaShana. (The rest of his advice is compiled in Likutei Eitzos, among other places). Now, if the “tzaddik’s” advice is against halacha, then of course the answer is to get out of there and find someone else to follow. But it’s not against halacha to visit the grave of a tzaddik on Rosh HaShana.

Think about the Gra’s statement that he would have walked across Europe to meet Ramchal. If Ramchal had given him advice, do you think he would have taken it? I would think so. So it’s not necessarily just a chassidic thing. If you had stood in line to get the Chazon Ish’s blessing and he gave you advice, wouldn’t you do what he said?

I agree. Espcially if you live in Zionist Israel. Leaving to daven to the kever of R’Nachman is the way to go.

I must note that most if not all the Rabbanim and Poskim of this dor say it is asuur legamri to go there. Quotes from Poskie Hador…..On Rosh HaShana everyone should be with their families, and not traveling to Kivre Tsadikim. Any person who is a Ba’ar Da’as, a Ba’ar Sekhel, should be Rosh HaShana night making kidush for his family. Families should be eating together, drinking together, and celebrate the Yom Tov together. This is what Yom Tov is all about. On Yom Tov what should we do? Go to a cemetery, or be with our families?”

Wolf: The issue of taking a concubine, as R’ Emden advocated, is much different, because that was a proposal by a single rabbi to overturn centuries of universal rabbinic consensus. Visiting a kever of a tzaddik on Rosh Hashana is different because there’s a lot of support for it (several generations of Breslov rabbis in various countries, Birkei Yosef, Pri ha’Aretz, Sedei Chemed, etc.), and no clear prohibition.

Hatzalojew, the way to go where?

yytz: Rav Yaakov Emden wasn’t the only one that allowed that. Ramban (and others) permitted it too.

“Physically attending a particular place on a particular day of the year never really had too much significance.”

Uh, Meron on hilula diRashbi.

“do you think other Jews who DON’T go to Uman on RH are unable to get any sort of kedusha throughout their year?”

I think that’s precisely what they think, and thats why they do it. Well im sure there are similar opportunities like going to kivrei tzadikim or being connected to a tzadik. Anything wrong with them thinking that way?

” I suspect the “kedusha” you are referring to is simply inspiration derived by seeing so many Jews in one place.”

That too but not only that. Some might think they are on a spiritual high when its simply like you said but that doesnt detract from hashpaos being drawn down on the neshoma that they may not be aware of.

I believe that time away does all of us (each in our own way) a world of good. It fosters a true appreciation for the people you are away from, and gives you a chance to see how vital they are to you.

To end off on a happy note, wether we daven in Meron, Uman or the kitchen table, may our tefilos reach the kisay hakovod, and bring us the geulah shelaima NOW!

As many rabbanim have pointed out, Avraham Avinu was more important than Rebbe Nachman.

Besides, every living rebbe has an Ezras Noshim in his shul. Why can’t there be accommodations for women in Uman? Oh, right. No husband wants his wife to see how people act there.

Curiosity, it’s not a comparison. Rebbe Nachman’s explicit advice to his followers was to visit his kever on Rosh HaShana. Breslovers are doing just that — following his advice. If you don’t like the word advice, well then call it a custom, as Rebbe Nachman does himself (see below). Surely it’s legitimate to follow a minhag established by your rebbe?

“It is customary to go to the Tzaddik to celebrate Rosh Hashanah. Rosh Hashanah is first and foremost the Day of Judgement. But no matter how great the severity of the judgement and no matter where in the world it threatens, everything is sweetened when Jews gather around the Tzaddik on Rosh Hashanah. With so many Jewish souls gathered together and merged in abundant love, a wonderful joy and delight come into the world.”(From Likutei Eitzos, Rosh HaShana).

Also, from Chayey Moharan (#403):

“Everyone, without exception, who counts himself as one of my followers or takes heed of what I say should come to me for Rosh Hashanah. Anyone who is worthy of being with me for Rosh Hashanah should be very happy: ‘Go your way, eat the fat and drink the sweet, for the joy of the Lord is your strength’ (Nehemiah 8:10).

“The Rebbe once declared: ‘Gohr mein zach is Rosh Hashanah . . . My entire mission is Rosh Hashanah.’ He was particularly emphatic about his followers coming to him for Rosh Hashanah, and indicated on his last Rosh Hashanah in Uman that we should continue to do so even after his death.”

siman 43.

The Wolf

Wolf, the difference is that R’ Emden had minority halachic views, while the directive to visit the Rebbe’s kever on RH is not against halacha — it is a minhag of a chassidic group. It is normal to follow a minhag of your rebbe even if other people oppose it. (As with sheitels v. headcoverings, techeiles, etc.)

Wolf: He says only from an illegitimate relationship in siman 43, so it is incomprehensible how you would apply this to yourself. Furthermore, he may be a daas yochid on this issue that we can’t pasken from. (That would still not preclude his own talmidim, only, from using his psak. Same with Uman. Rav Nachman’s talmidim, including the current ones, can use his psak, while others perhaps not.)