June 10, 2012 5:46 am at 5:46 am #603723
Would the same apply to the internet? Obviously if he has no problem mentioning it to people it would, but even if he doesn’t publicly discuss having unfiltered internet, guests may come across it (perhaps by using it or seeing it).June 10, 2012 6:04 am at 6:04 am #1134113
Sorry, wrong link for Hebrew Books. Here is the correct:June 10, 2012 7:02 am at 7:02 am #1134114Loyal JewMember
After the recent psak, someone with unfiltered internet should not be allowed into a shul, let alone be shaliach tzibur, if only for defying the Gedolim.June 10, 2012 7:08 am at 7:08 am #1134115
See Hirhurim article from June 5: “Internet and Leading Services.”June 10, 2012 7:20 am at 7:20 am #1134116
I am assuming this is a really bad jokeJune 10, 2012 7:57 am at 7:57 am #1134117YW Moderator-42Moderator
If someone with unfiltered Internet is the chazzan you are mechuyav to take out your phone and start texting in protest.June 10, 2012 8:38 am at 8:38 am #1134118takahmamashParticipant
Wow, in the space of a few posts, I’ve been told that I can’t be shliach tzibur (which I am, 4-7 times a week), and I shouldn’t be allowed into my shule.
I’m certainly glad I don’t live in your communities. Of course, I’m sure you’re glad I don’t live their either.June 10, 2012 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1134119mewhoParticipant
does the Gabbai ask this question when he asks if the person would like to daven for the amud?
would you like to daven shacharis and do you have an unfiltered internet?June 10, 2012 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1134120abcdefghijklmnopParticipant
Would the fact that I have unfiltered internet and a TV cancel each other out?
Or maybe, its per tv and per device without filtered internet. In which case, an even number would allow me to daven, and an odd number would not?June 10, 2012 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1134121
Wow. a life without finding someone to exclude from something must be a life not worth living. Is this what yiddishkeit in our time has come to? Let’s figure out who we can’t associate with, who we can’t listen to, who we can’t eat by, who’s children we can’t let into our schools, who we must shun or banish from our kehilos? Its all we have to think about and worry about.
I’m going to concentrate on making my own tfilos more meaningful, my kavonoh more perfect, and I’ll do my best to bring someone who doesn’t usually daven at all in to experience something Jewish.
You know what happens to a yiddishkeit with all the life, the meschlichkeit, the bringing in of brothers and sisters sucked out of it? It withers and dies like a dried husk of corn. It blows away in the wind. It shrivels and decomposes. My yiddishkeit has room for those who are less than perfect.
Do you know who the first one to claim that observing Torah was all or nothing was? It was the meshumad Paul of Tarsus, who more than anyone else made Christianity into what it has become, and because of whom millions of Jews died. Those who seek to exclude exclude exclude based on this or that imperfection of observance are following the same road.June 10, 2012 3:13 pm at 3:13 pm #1134122
@yichusdik i think the op was not being serious as his logic doesnt even fit into what the Debreziner Rov said at all. there is not a rov in the world who would say such a thing and he is a daas yochid in that respect – besides for maybe in the chasidish community because there maybe you would be considered a poresh min hatzibur. Although i do agree with the op on one thing – w3schools is a great learning tool.June 10, 2012 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1134123Loyal JewMember
Mewho, a shul does have the right to congregate around shared values, including, gasp, the value shared by the Gedolim of assuring unfiltered internet. It is not fanaticism to expect a shaliach tzibur to share the values of the tzibur and its leaders.
Yichusdik, that was an eloquent post with lots of kiruv values but the only issue here is whether someone who has unfiltered internet can be shaliach tzibur…June 10, 2012 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1134124
Unfiltered internet has all the negatives of television and much much worse. There is no reason the Debretziner Rov’s psak teshuva on television would be different for unfiltered internet, as all the reasoning’s apply. Unless you want to somehow argue that the person with the unfiltered internet is not doing so publicly and is sinning in private.
As far as not letting him into a shul altogether, the Debretziner doesn’t go that far. (Btw, the Debretziner was Oberlander, not Chasidish.) And television was also prohibited by the gedolim. He only says he cannot be a Shatz.June 10, 2012 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1134125
The halacha is not like the Debreciner. End of story.June 10, 2012 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1134126
Not only is the halacha like the Debreciner, no one even argues on the Debreciner Rov. Please cite any SH’UT that disagrees with this SH’UT on what the requirements for a Shaliach Tzibbur is.June 10, 2012 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #1134127M.O. ChossidMember
If someone who owns a Porsche and has season tickets to their local basketball team, would they also be banned from being a shaleiach tzibur?June 10, 2012 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1134128
The Debreziner logic was because there was an antenna on the roof it is considered bfarhesya so it is definitely private in the case of internet – also cite me one litvishe rav now a days who agrees with the Debreziner rav – you will be very hard pressed to find one. i am not going to say i am at all an expert in every shaalos utshuvos sefer but i have been around some great rabbonim who were clearly not noheg this way.June 10, 2012 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #1134129
Me. I disagree with him.June 10, 2012 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1134130arcParticipant
Is someone that posts in here allowed?June 10, 2012 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1134131
If it is filtered.June 10, 2012 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #1134132lakewhutParticipant
Who says YWN is permitted?June 10, 2012 10:23 pm at 10:23 pm #1134133abcdefghijklmnopParticipant
@lakewhut way to be disingenuousJune 11, 2012 12:00 am at 12:00 am #1134134
“Yichusdik, that was an eloquent post with lots of kiruv values but the only issue here is whether someone who has unfiltered internet can be shaliach tzibur…”
If I may speak for Yichusdik, I believe that in his (beautiful) post he was making the point that we would all be better served by focusing our energies on bringing more Jews tachas canfei hashechina (under the wings of Hashem’s Divine Presence) as opposed to trying to find new ways to exclude and ostracize those who we feel we can classify as inferior to us spiritually.June 11, 2012 12:39 am at 12:39 am #1134135
Are you suggesting that we allow a mechallel Shabbos to be Shliach Tzibbur due to kiruv? We have rules that we need to keep. Someone who sins in public is halachicly precluded from being Shatz. The only question remaining is whether the sin is being conducted publicly.June 11, 2012 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1134136
@Loyal Jew there is a vast difference between a shul deciding on its own for the qualifications of a shaliach tzibbur that fits its values and saying that no one in any shul can be a shatz in such a case.
@Tomche ” Please cite any SH’UT that disagrees with this SH’UT on what the requirements for a Shaliach Tzibbur is.” come on you have to see the flaw in that – yes everyone agrees that this is the qualification but you dont honestly think that most rabbonim hold this way even in regards to having a tv in the house.June 11, 2012 12:49 am at 12:49 am #1134137
@Tomche also how can it be bfarhesya – having the internet is ok just without a filter is a problem and that part is for sure not done bfarhesya – just because everyone knows you have the internet doesnt mean anythingJune 11, 2012 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1134138
“Are you suggesting that we allow a mechallel Shabbos to be Shliach Tzibbur due to kiruv?”
No. I am suggesting that we laymen have much better ways to strengthen ourselves and those around us than trying to concoct new ways to push people away and make them feel looked down upon.June 11, 2012 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1134139
The Debreciner Rov zichrono tzadik l’vrocha was not a layman. He was one of Klal Yisroel’s great poskim.June 11, 2012 1:39 am at 1:39 am #1134140BaalSechelParticipant
It seems that no one who posted knows how to learn a Be’er Moshe (especially not the mechutzof who undertook to argue on him whithout reading what he says). The Debriciner is discussing a shul whose permanant Shliach Tzibbur has a television at home. He says that since the Shulchan Aruch (Rem”a) says that the halacha is that we warn, and then remove a Shliach Tzibbur who sings inapropriate songs, all the more so we must get rid of a shliach tzibbur who is known to have a TV in his home. He adds that one may not daven in such a shul if they don’t remove him. He is not discussing at all whether such a person may occasionally daven for the amud.
I agree with the OP that anyone with unfiltered internet is certainly no better than one who has a TV, and that such a person may not be retained by the tzibbur to be their official shatz. He also says that if a person’s aquaintances know it is considered common knowledge.June 11, 2012 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1134141
“The Debreciner Rov zichrono tzadik l’vrocha was not a layman. He was one of Klal Yisroel’s great poskim.”
True. He also did not start this thread.June 11, 2012 2:14 am at 2:14 am #1134142June 11, 2012 2:21 am at 2:21 am #1134143
@BaalSechel The mechutzof was responding to the op who misread the beer moshe. also after rereading the tshuva i must respectfully disagree with you – “He also says that if a person’s aquaintances know it is considered common knowledge.” while the Debreciner does say that (he actually says that the guy has to know that the rabim know) he makes additional qualifications. he says that since anyone who walks in (kol boeh baiso) can see it it is therefore considered bfarhesya. in addition he says “shei efshar lehastiro” which is again not the case with the internet – everyone just knowing it is not good enough, as the qualification is that he is being oiver bfarhesya which in the case of internet he is not – certainly over the question of whether he has a filter or not. the part about a person who has unfiltered internet in their house not being able to be chazan is your own opinion and is unsupported by the beer moshe or any other posek that i know of.June 11, 2012 11:43 am at 11:43 am #1134144
My post was not only about kiruv, so much as it was about the mindset and the mentality that inclines a person to look towards exclusion rather than inclusion.
Would I expect that a mechallel shabbos be a shliach tzibur? I expect not; but I wonder how we are not makpid on those who are not glach in dinei mommonus, or those who are r’l treating those who are vulnerable in an abusive way. It doesn’t seem to bother us so much that we exclude them now, does it?
Ah, but you will say, the Debreciner didn’t give me a psak about that, so I have no obligation, necessity, or right to exclude them. I am happy with my blinders. I am happy with my pilpul, though it paints me into a corner.
That is the kind of yiddishkeit I am convinced will ultimately be the shrinking preserve of an increasingly small number of yidden. It is the kind of yiddishkeit that has little hashpo’oh on anyone outside the beis medresh, the kind of yiddishkeit that remembers “v’atem tihyu li mamleches kohanim” but forgets “v’goy kodosh”. It ignores the Jewish people while exalting the piety of the Jewish individual. It is doomed not because it is objectively “wrong”, but because it is incomplete. We are a people, a whole nation, and our responsibilities go way, way beyond whether we wrap 7 or 8 times our tfilin straps around our arms, or who we can exclude from being our shliach tzibur. Maybe we should focus on that a bit more.June 11, 2012 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #1134145
Also Tomche and Baal Sechel, I’d like to hear your answer to this question. THe Debreciner Rov Also made a public psak That it is absolutely forbidden to shave and he can find no grounds for being lenient. (if the mods will allow, the psak is here http://www.koshershaver.info/pdf/debretziner1.pdf)
So please, tell me. There is no more obvious place to look to see if daas torah is being followed than at one’s face. So which one of you will tell R’Aharon Lichtenstein that he can’t daven for the omud regularly? R’Paysach Krohn? hundreds of other gedolim and talmidei chachomim??
But why wouldn’t you? The Debreciner said!!!! (and I have no issue with the Debreciner Rov, he just happened to be the posek you cited).
But you wouldn’t, would you. You would be embarrassed. Perhaps a tiny scintilla of that embarrassment might apply to excluding someone else, not nearly their stature. And then you will have learned, for a moment, about kovod habriyos, and about how to treat another Jew.June 11, 2012 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1134146yossi z.Member
I give up.June 11, 2012 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #1134147zahavasdadParticipant
Wasnt The Debreciner Rov connected to the Satmar Rav?
He was on the Kasner train with him and lived in Williamsburg after the war.June 11, 2012 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #1134148
Allow me to posit a question:
WHY would having a TV disqualify anyone from being a shaliach zibbur ,or anything else for that matter? yes, of course I know that the Rabbonim are against having a TV, but what is the actual aveirah? Same with unfiltered internet. It certainly is an eitzah tovah but an aveira?June 11, 2012 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1134149
I checked the poster’s link to hebrew books and I read the teshuvah by the Debreciner Rov zzl. Indeed, the debreciner Rov is scathing about television and he considers it a terrible sin. However, when you check the “mareh mekomos” in the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 53, s’eif 25), you find that the reason to fire a baal tefilla is only for very serious aveiras- (relations with a non-jew or being a mosser). The debreciner Rov zzl may think that televsion is on the same level but I daresay that this might be extreme.
The halocho of firing a baal tefillah who sings “shirei agovim” means very specifically that he sings songs that are sung for avoidah zoroh and that he sings them exactly as the do their places of worship. (think georgian chant for kedusha….)
To emulate the Debreciner Rov zzl , you have to assume that whole generations of good jews are possul…..not likely to happen!June 11, 2012 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1134150gavra_at_workParticipant
The same P’sak applies to someone who smokes. There is a reason why Rav Moshe refused to say outright that any of these are assur. The Gadlus of Rav Moshe understood the ramifications of his P’sakim.June 11, 2012 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #1134151
Oh, and one more thing, tomche, loyal jew, and baal sechel. Tell me, please. Are the kehilos and mosdos that are making prohibitions on the participation of people who have unfiltered internet still accepting their donations? How about you? Do you think the schools your kids go to should accept a donation from a yid who has unfiltered internet? How about your shul? The Mikve? The gemachs? Do you think it is ok to exclude them from being shliach tzibur but perfectly reasonable to accept their tzedaka?June 11, 2012 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1134153MiddlePathParticipant
I think people who use their mouths for evil (such as lashon hara, hurtful speech, etc.) should be considered far more unworthy of leading prayers (since it is done with the mouth) than someone who has a tv or unfiltered internet.June 12, 2012 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1134154BaalSechelParticipant
To answer Yichusdik: I’ll respond to your comments one at a time. The mechutzof who wrote that the Halacha is not like the Debriciner without reading what he says, is a true mechutzaf. The least he owes a great man like the Debriciner before dismissing his words, is to read what he says, look up the mar’eh mekomos, try to understand, and only then to express an opinion. This clown probabely didn’t spend a single minute before writing his chutzpa.
Next, as far as Parhesia is concerned, kol bo’ei beiso probabely does not mean literally. If you look at the mekor in Shulchan Aruch that he quotes (which passuls anyone who sings inappropriate songs), the shulchan Oruch does not even stress the Parhesia aspect, only that it’s known.
The next point you make, trying to say that TV (which technically the Shatz can control which shows he watches)is better than unfiltered internet, all I can say is B”H you don’t have a clue what is going on with the internet, so let’s leave it like that.
Finally, the point about the Debriciner assuring shaving (like many Gedolei Yisroel did) has no relevance. Shaving is a major shaila, with many gedolim weighing in on both sides, and the accepted minhag of America is to permit it. I am unaware of anyone disagreeing with this psak. If you can come up with a name, kol hakavod. We can then take it from there.
Lastly, I don’t understand why you are so vexed about this issue.
It’s a matter of psak Halacha. Just analyze the Shulchan Aruch, go through the sugya, and follow the Halacha. I find it especially surpising that people are weighing whether the Halacha governing who is qualified to represent klal Yisroel as a shatz is worth it from a shalom perspective. Is kashrus worth it? What about Chol Hamoed? Halacha is Halcha; learn it properly, and follow it!June 12, 2012 4:18 am at 4:18 am #1134155
@BaalSechel i dont agree with you i think the Debriciner is very clear on multiple places inthat tshuva that there is tnai of bfarhesya and from his antenna remark amongst others seems to imply that that is a necessary condition. the shulchan aruch is talking about the chazan singing inappropriate songs in a shul or in a beis hmishtaos etc. (look at the beir heitev and likutei megadim amongst others) – the point is that he has to be oiver an averia brabim in order to become pasul as a chazzan. it is very clear from the debreciner and from the other poskim and i dont know how u saw otherwise. i think that tv is different from internet halchically as there is no heter to have a tv and there are plenty of rabbonim who will give you heterim to have unfiltered internet. That particular issue is a more protracted one (internet v. tv) but i can assure you that a majority of american poskim do agree with me – it is a bigger nisayon and the pitfalls are greater but that does not make the person who has it a bigger baal aveira – which is what is necessary in this case.June 12, 2012 4:25 am at 4:25 am #1134156shlishiMember
there are plenty of rabbonim who will give you heterim to have unfiltered internet.
I very highly doubt that.June 12, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #1134157
@shlishi we are talking about in a case by case basis over here and i am telling you heteirim have been given out by respectable rabbonim – primarily for business purposes and not to be used by children. this is not something which is broadcasted obviously. i personally asked my r”y before taking my present job which required having unfiltered internet and he told me to take the job.June 12, 2012 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1134159
baalsechel and jbaldy keep on talking about a chazzan singing “inappropriate songs”, leaving this term unexplained. I have to correct them-as I did in an earlier posting-because it is not just ‘inappropriate songs” but -very specifically- songs that are sung in ‘their temples for avoida zoroh’- this is from the mogen avrohom and fully supported by the “Be’er heitiv’ and the mishne berurah.
The term is “shirei agovim’ not just “shirei chol”. This is a crucial difference and I don’t want people to infer that just singing something that is not fully accepted can be the basis for the same halocho.June 12, 2012 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #1134160ItcheSrulikMember
rob: Does apply to piyyutim set to church hymns? If so, we’re in trouble.June 12, 2012 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1134161
@rabbiofberlin there is a machlokes as to what shirei agovim is so i am just using the moniker “inappropriate” instead but according to most you are right.June 12, 2012 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1134162
jbaldy22- thanks for the acknowledgment.It is an important distinction because a number of jewish singers today (many chareidim) have used “outside” tunes and set them to hebrew verses. Obviously, they will not be barred from the “Amud’ !
Itchesrulik: As far as I know, the only “piyut’ that may be sung as per an old non-Jewish tune is “Maoz Tsur” on chanukkah.
I have no knoweldge of “church music’ being used elsewhere.June 13, 2012 1:13 am at 1:13 am #1134163
Baal Sechel, I appreciate that you attempted to address some of my issues and questions, but I think that you completely missed the point. Yiddishkeit is not all and only about the minutiae of the interpretation or application of the S’A. In fact, you seem to have lost touch with even the halachos of interpretation we say every morning as described by Rabi Yishmoel. You obviously have trouble with the concept of gezeirah shova, which is what I brought in with the Debreciner’s psak on shaving. I didn’t discuss television, so I don’t know why you brought that up. It was another poster.
And you missed most of my other points and questions. You didn’t answer the last one, which is about whether you would allow a school or any mosdos you are involved in to accept tzedoko from someone who you wouldn’t allow to daven for the omud because of unfiltered internet. Let me tell you, there would be precious little funding for many institutions if they had the courage of their convictions and refused to be hypocrites about this. It’s not a question, Baal Sechel, that you can look in the S’A for an answer to. It has to come from your neshoma and your moral, ethical compass. Ideally that compass is guided by Pirkei Ovos, or perhaps by the Rambam, but it is your conscience I am asking about, and it is my point that without the neshoma’s input, the S’A is strong and relevant, but ultimately sterile.
You also did not address other issues I asked about. Did you know that in devorim 25:16 being unfair in business practices is called a toevah – same as mishkav zochor! And yet, I do not see or hear you or anyone else finding or trumpeting a psak that such people can’t be a shliach tzibur. Why? Why the silence about this but chas vecholilo he has unfiltered internet? One may perceive it as a terrible sin, but it is not a toevah mideoraisa. It would seem an obvious kal v’chomer that this problem should be addressed with way, way more priority than unfiltered internet. And I’m not even going to get started on issues of abusers. No need, my point is clear, as is your silence.
The truth is, you are conditioned to think about your Yahadus in only one way. Your perspective isn’t bad or evil, I don’t even think it is ill intentioned. But it is incomplete. It ignores the fact that it encourages hypocrisy and double standards. It ignores the fact that we were given the Torah at Sinai not just as 600,000 individuals, but also as one nation. I don’t expect you to come around and agree with everything I say, but I hope that you can be honest with yourself, and perhaps open your eyes a bit.
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