June 13, 2012 2:34 am at 2:34 am #1134164
Yichusdik: Rav Ellyashev and the Chofetz Chaim also prohibit shaving. I take it that in your zeal to remain non-hypocritical, you similarly reject everything else from Rav Elyashev and the Chofetz Chaim.June 13, 2012 3:26 am at 3:26 am #1134165BaalSechelParticipant
Yichusdik: Let’s start by saying that my intent in what I wrote was to defend the legal ruling of the Be’er Moshe against the brazen words that you wrote. I had no intention of writing anything more. Any inferences you made that imply that by writing from a halachic perspective and not a “feeling one” I somehow am lacking “neshomo”, are completely misconstrued.
Getting back to your points (which I didn’t address the first time because that wasn’t the topic): you ask about accepting tzedoko from a person who is unqualified to represent the Tzibur because he has unfiltered internet. Answer: there is no Halacha that prohibits allowing such a person the zchus of tzdaka, just as there is no halacha prohibitting him from getting an alia. Only from being a permanant shatz and shochet, as B”M says. The messageto to take home from this Halacha is the high standard that we must expect from someone who represents us to the Ribbono Shel Olam.
As for your questioning why I don’t post about fair business practices or other problems, what you refer to as “my silence”, I actually rarely post about anything. I have precious little time for posting. Only the kavod of the Be’er Moshe, and seeing how none of the posters understood what he was saying, and yet were discussing his psak in a callous fashion, prompted me to write. My contribution towards promoting erlichkeit is advising the people who ask for my advice and psak about business dealings to be as erlich and yashrusdik as possible.June 14, 2012 1:11 am at 1:11 am #1134167
You see, Shmoel, the point is my zeal is reserved for not telling others what to do, not causing others to come to reject those and that which reject them, and for recognizing that I personally have much to do and to learn to become the Yid I aspire to be. That is my zeal. and I leave judgement up to HKBH.
Baal Sechel, your answers prove my point. the question isn’t about taking away the zchus of giving tzedaka from the man who has unfiltered internet; there are lots of places for him to give. the question is about you, your capacity to exclude him from something while being prepared to take his money. What does your sechel tell you? Mine tells me not to be a hypocrite.
I do appreciate that you advocate for yashrus and ehrlichkeit in business. That is admirable. My point was perhaps more aimed at Loyal Jew, Tomche, and the others who were not simply defending the Beer Moshe, but were rather advocating an approach, visible in a number of posts on a number of topics, which I am troubled by. picking and choosing who to exclude and upon what criteria is a slippery slope. As I wrote earlier, the Torah describes illegitimate business activities as a toevah. And yet the perception of some is that it is more important to exclude someone based on a modern psak than on an issur toevah mideoraysah.June 14, 2012 4:52 am at 4:52 am #1134168Loyal JewParticipant
Yichusdik, I argued a narrow point: a person who defies the consensus among the Gedolim shouldn’t be shaliach tzibur. If he paskened on his own what order the davening should follow, no tzibur would have him as their shaliach. If he paskened on his own that electricity isn’t fire, no tzibur would have him as their shaliach. After the asifa, the same should apply to someone who has unfiltered internet.June 14, 2012 12:13 pm at 12:13 pm #1134169
It is precisely the narrowness of your point I am taking issue with. Every action and every inaction has implications. If you or your kehilah does this while not doing that it has implications. I’m trying to get Jews to see that they need to think about the broader implications of their actions and their decisions. It isn’t just about who is going to daven maariv for the omud today. Its about how the baal toevah in business can be davening mussaf for the kehila next shabbes. Or how the expansion of the shul can be paid for by money accepted from people you wouldn’t allow in front of the omud.
I am flabbergasted that now two people have responded completely unable to see beyond the end of the seif they are quoting halocho from. No comparison between situations, even though that is the methodology throughout the gemoro; no consideration of the ethicsl implications of decisions, even though we have enough guidance on that to fill a library full of seforim; no understanding of the fact that good though imperfect yidden are being hounded out the door, and all you are prepared to do is wave at them on the way out.June 14, 2012 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #1134170jbaldy22Member
@Loyal Jew now your just making things up at least Tomche and Baalsechel were trying to come up with halchich arguments (albeit in my opinion incorrect ones)even the debreciner never said a word about poresh min hatzibur about tv even thought there is way more of a consensus about that. A community or shul has the right to decide who should be a shatz based on whatever qualifications it wants. Halacha however does not in any way mandate such a choice in this situation. Yes you argue a narrow point and it is not based in halacha or the gedolim what so ever. I am sure that if you called up the actual gedolim (many of whom are extremely accessible) you profess to be supporting they would vehemently disagree with you.June 14, 2012 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #1134171
.June 14, 2012 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1134172
The consensus of the gedolim is that unfiltered internet istake abis far far worse than television ever was. And make no mistake about it, television itself is terrible.June 14, 2012 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1134173Loyal JewParticipant
What am I making up? You have a line-up of Gedolim who plead, pasken, recommend, whatever, against unfiltered internet, explaining in detail why, and then a shul should let someone with unfiltered internet daven at the amud? Isn’t it plain common sense to choose someone else who’s more careful about his personal life and more respectful of the Gedolim?June 14, 2012 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #1134174uneeqParticipant
Don’t waste your keystrokes on a obvious troll. Myself being an experienced troll in a past life, it easy to tell that the OP is trying to convince himself of his own nonsense that it has become so ingrained in him that he actually believes it. He learnt this trait from our forefather’s relative, Lavan. Lavan was such a professional liar because he managed to convince himself that his lies were true. All these “issurim” that people are discussing are not issurim at all, as rabbiofberlin has mentioned. It is an eitzah tova at best, as there can be no more issurim invented after the chasimas hagemora. Period.
Next topic: If someone has a filtered TV (yeh it’s possible) would the Debreciner allow him to be the shatz?June 14, 2012 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1134175
uneeq: Where do you come to actually argue on the Debreciner!?!June 14, 2012 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1134176jbaldy22Member
@uneeq i guess you are right since they don’t appear to be reading anything besides for the first two sentences that i write anywayJune 14, 2012 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1134177Sam2Participant
Csar: Where did he argue? (Also, there is a ton to say on this, both against the P’sak and against everyone here’s clear misunderstanding of it.)
Loyal Jew: Your common sense doesn’t dictate Halachah. Baruch Hashem He gave us a Halachic system to determine Halachah from actual sources, not from whatever “common sense” everyone has as to what they feel the Halachah should be.
Also, mods, how is that link in the OP allowed? It’s not a link to Hebrewbooks. At least, not for me.June 14, 2012 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #1134178June 15, 2012 2:36 am at 2:36 am #1134179Sam2Participant
Csar: A Takanah in one community does not prove that it is the Halachah. Ad’rabbah, it proves that normative Halachah doesn’t hold that. Otherwise, there’s no need for a Takanah.June 15, 2012 12:48 pm at 12:48 pm #1134180ohr chodeshMember
If a shul has a posted policy that people with unfiltered internet cannot daven for the amud, and somone with unfiltered internet davens for the amud without beind moda his status to the rov or gabboim, is he considered a ganav or something else?June 15, 2012 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #1134181
Good question, ohr chodesh. I it allows me to clarify. I have no problem with a shul that says – to daven for the omud, you need, to be wearing a jacket, or a hat, or you can only use an ashkenazi haavoroh. If it is a minhag hamokom and identified as such, there’s an inyan of respecting minhogim. But what has been put forward here is different – as halocho, and articulated that it should be halocho for everyone.
Sam2 also had an excellent point.
As far as geneivas daas is concerned, the Gemara in Chullin 94a assurs misleading anyone in any way, Jew or Goy. Rambam also brings this issur in Hilchos Mechira and the S’A also does. So yes, it would be geneivah.January 29, 2016 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1134182HashemisreadingParticipant
Can someone be the shaliach tzibur out of his iPhone? That’s like a double whammyJanuary 29, 2016 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1134183charliehallParticipant
“Can someone be the shaliach tzibur out of his iPhone? “
I have on rare occasions been shaliach tzibur out of my Android phone for a minyan where almost everyone is praying using one smartphone app or another as their siddur.January 30, 2016 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1134184BarryLS1Participant
YW Moderator-42: I love your answer.
The bottom line is that we can list so many things that could exclude someone from being a shaliach tzibur that no one would be left.
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