Can the “right” of modern Orthodoxy be saved while the “left” has left?

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  • #1651967

    Haimy
    Participant

    A good number of “Left” of the road modern orthodox Rabbis around the world are tirelessly aiming to reconcile Yiddishkeit with modern secular values. They are being “Bold, brave, & innovative at attempting to make Torah relevant in the 21st century. Even so called centrist MO rabbis espouse deos kozvos like embracing evolution & age of the universe in contridiction to our mesorah.
    Among their top priorities are gender equality in the rabbinate, LGBT normalization within orthodoxy, Tikkun Olam, Easing the conversion process, & help orthodoxy become more pluralistic & inclusive.
    These rabbis have many students following in their “innovative” path. “Chovevai Torah is teaching a whole new generation how you can be “open & Orthodox”
    Rabbi Avrohom Gordimer has been calling out these modern day misyavnim, but the train has left the station & these “rabbis” are forging ahead.
    The question remains if the “right” of modern orthodoxy can be saved from being drawn down the path to the abyss their brothers on the “Left” have taken. Many MO youth are leaving Yiddishkeit in droves. Will the “Right” of MO wake up in time?

    #1651993

    Joseph
    Participant

    Many MOs have become Chareidim. Go to almost any Chareidi shul on Shabbos and you’ll find numerous members there who used to be MO or are from families that were MO.

    #1652011

    DovidBT
    Participant

    Will the “Right” of MO wake up in time?

    In time for what?

    How is this different from the questions obtained by replacing “Right of MO” with “Conservative”, “Reform” or “secular”?

    #1652013

    1
    Participant

    The right of the MO and up in Lakewood, for obvious reasons.

    #1652014

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    YCT is not considered MO by any respected MO institution. Everyone considers them their own thing at this point.

    #1652039

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The religious “left” (aka MO) and the political left are NOT the same. Jews who have nominally associated with the Dems and political left are increasingly moving center/right as the left is captured by an increasingly strident anti-Semitic tone (masquarading as anti-Israel and not anti-Semitic). This was noted in another recent thread where most of the Womens’ march leadership has resigned in protest to the continued inclusion of anti-Israeli/pro Palestinian groups whose agenda is clearly anti-Semitic. Sadly, we are squeezed with anti-Semitism on both the right and left fringes of the American political debate. The religious right itself, which for the past 2 or 3 years was almost 100 percent pro-Trump has shown a slight centrist tilt as some are questioning their unconditional support for the current Administration and looking beyond its clearly pro-Israel policies to other issues.

    #1651995

    Avi K
    Participant

    There is also a book called Challenge which brings forth several possible reconciliations.

    Regarding the main question, hopefully the OO will heed the criticism as did the Chassidic movement and become a legitimate stream. For example, by clarifying that there are certain acts which are prohibited but someone who has a yetzer hara is no different than someone who has some other yetzer hara (and IMHO a yetzer hara to defraud people is worse).

    As for your contention that “Many MO youth are leaving Yiddishkeit in droves”, many are staying, many are moving to the right and many secular youth are coming back to some form of MO. IMHO, OO shuls are necessary as halfway houses. In fact, Rabbi Avi Weiss once commented that many people who start out in HIR become so frum that they will no longer daven there – and did not sound unhappy about it.

    #1652119

    charliehall
    Participant

    Avi K,

    I once heard Rabbi Avi Weiss describe how he once stayed up all night talking to a young Jewish man who was about to marry a non-Jewish woman the next day. The young man decided to cancel the wedding. Rabbi Weiss said that the man eventually became frum and moved to a charedi neighborhood in Jerusalem. Rabbi Weiss was clearly pleased as he related that story.

    #1652136

    1
    Participant

    One kiruv story doesn’t make YCT right.

    #1652147

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Riverdale is about 20 miles from BP and 25 miles from Monsey but it might as well be on another planet from the perspective of those who have contempt for YCT/Rav Weiss and his hashkafah. To those that view MO, and especially the YCT leftist brand of MO as inconsistent with daas torah and yiddeshkeit, then there really is no common ground for discussion on the pros/cons of whether they offer an option for keeping some connected to yiddeshkeit because they don’t view it as “yiddeshkeit” and some would say no better than conservative/reform kefirah.

    #1652151

    Joseph
    Participant

    There are also people who started out as Conservative (or even Reform) and became very frum.

    OO is in the same category as Reconstructists, Renewal, Reform and Conservative. Nothing to do with Orthodoxy or Judaism for that matter. Their converts aren’t Jewish, their witnesses aren’t kosher eidim, etc.

    #1652202

    Avi K
    Participant

    Joseph, who says that their witnesses aren’t kosher eidim? What about black-hat fraudsters?

    #1652565

    ZionGate
    Participant

    “….. Many MO youth are leaving yiddishkeit in droves…”
    Hello..!!??
    Are you not aware of this exact problem even in your own backyard?

    #1653192

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    I wonder if the OP can retitle his post as “Can the “right” of Ultra-Yeshivish be saved while the “left” has left? There are many examples where the oilam has gone beyond frumkeit and to the extend it borders on reshus.

    I just saw a video of black hat members of this crowd pulling off a techal of a woman?!?!?! Never in my life I would have ever thought I would see supposedly Benai Torah doing something so vile?!?! Is it time we separate from these people and the rabbonim that support them? What should we called this new sect; FRUM:
    F- Feel
    R- Reshus
    U- unvaynig
    M-Mitzvos

    #1653515

    Heargod
    Participant

    Yes, as the “left” leave, the “right” are left alone and are more easily saved !!! :!duh:!

    #1653618

    Avi K
    Participant

    Anon1m0us, would you please translate “unvaynig” for those of us who are not fluent in creole German,

    #1653620

    Yeshivishrockstar
    Participant

    I just saw a video of black hat members of this crowd pulling off a techal of a woman?!?!?!

    Liar. Never happened.

    #1653801

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    AviK- U- unvaynig….very little

    #1653808

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    YeshivaRockstar.
    Typical yeshivish response. However, feel free to Google “Peleg Tzaddikm Rip Tichel Off Lady Trying To Stop Them From Blocking Cars” as it seems I can not post links.

    #1655022

    MrSarahLevine613
    Participant

    “Many MO youth are leaving Yiddishkeit in droves.”

    May be true.

    I had written about this previously in Is Yeshiva World Right thread.

    There is a study of the Modern Orthodox community — which I cannot link to — but you can find easily. It is by Nishma. Page 9.

    The survey concludes “Children on the left are becoming much less observant than their parents.”

    The survey also notes that 1/3 MO are less observant, 1/3 are More and 1/3 of the same. I am not sure that would differ from any population. And — i am not sure what less observant means. For me, i have one child who i consider more observant. I have one who i consider less but his wife covers her hair and they are shomer kashrut/shabbat. Maybe i just should not “consider”?

    I had written whether when MO kids leave MO — what happens to them. Do they intermarry? Do they just become non orthodox? Do they send to day school? But for the most part — i think (with no evidence) that they live middle class/upper class “normal” lives. I would think that in the Yeshivishe world that when kids leave they leave for drugs, alcohol or a “harder life”? Am I right? Is there any evidence?

    #1655113

    Avi K
    Participant

    MrSarah, there is actually movement between different streams of Orthodoxy. There are even organizations in both the US and Israel that counsel people who were brought up in communities that are inappropriate for them but do not want to stop keeping mitzvot.

    #1656347

    SarahLevine613
    Participant

    “MrSarah, there is actually movement between different streams of Orthodoxy. There are even organizations in both the US and Israel that counsel people who were brought up in communities that are inappropriate for them but do not want to stop keeping mitzvot.”

    I have seen this a bit. Makom, i believe is one. It makes sense to me.

    The Nishma study was vague about the drop out rate from MO. In fairness, it did not really address it. I dont know if i would call it droves. I was thinking anecdotally in my shul — and i would say 1 in 15? I really dont know. I do know that it is not like every family has one kid who is no longer orthodox.

    The numbers of drop outs based on Pew Study were much greater — especially in older demographics. I think thats because the definition of Orthodoxy was much broader 50 years ago.

    I

    #1656382

    motchah11
    Participant

    I hate to admit this, but from the “far right” of Chareidim there are many who no longer believe in Hakodosh Boruch Hu or His mitzvos. What can we do about them?

    #1656884

    Avi K
    Participant

    Mr. Sarah, how is it possible to arrive at a figure. Even in Israel, where one can measure the number of seats won by religious parties there is no way of knowing how many simply tired of sectoral politics. Moreover, one cannot know how many secular Jews become observant and what percentages go to different groups – and whether they stay with a certain group or move on to another stream (this can happen when they initially become very machmir and then stabilize in the middle).

    #1657007

    SarahLevine613
    Participant

    “Moreover, one cannot know how many secular Jews become observant and what percentages go to different groups – and whether they stay with a certain group or move on to another stream (this can happen when they initially become very machmir and then stabilize in the middle).”

    Its difficult. But there are demographic studies all the time. They give a sense — i think. The MO study did a decent job.

    The other way — of course — is you do a small study and extrapolate from the numbers.

    A poster above said that “MO are leaving in droves”. I dont know how many MOS are in a “drove” but that aside — I am curious about the “drop out” numbers and even more curious about what drop out means.

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