May 23, 2022 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #2089966
Avira – Do we know the reason for everything?
Just because we don’t know the reason-it doesn’t mean there is none.May 23, 2022 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2089985
Ts, Hashem told us the purpose of creation very clearly. Goyim like to wax philosophically about it and ponder “mysteries”, and imagine in their olam hadimyon, all sorts of fantasies, many of which include alien civilizations far more advanced than ours. This is all from a materialism mindset.
Jews don’t float through life pondering the meaning lf existence and wondering if there are parallel dimensions and other universes where there are different versions of ourselves, or if somewhere some aliens are watching us, and what they might think of us.
This is all a godless worldview. Hashem created people to give them the Torah and through it to obtain olam haba/shlaimus. Aleph bais of yiddishkeit. That precludes alien civilization or bechirah creations who wouldn’t have a Torah. And there can’t be “another torah”, because that’s against the 13 ikkarim.May 23, 2022 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #2090025
Just because the existence of aliens would destroy your pretzel-like theology, it does not mean that Hashem can’t do it. Even without the Ikkarim, we know that Hashem can do as He pleases.May 23, 2022 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #2090075
Let me clarify; if someone tells me that he thinks there are flying mushrooms on mars, and i say “i have zero reason to think so”, and he answers, “yes, but what if? What will you do if we find the flying mushrooms?”
From the Torah perspective, there’s no reason at all to think that there is intelligent life on other planets. Hashem can and does what He wants, but whenever someone says “well what will you do if and when we find them?” Alecha lehavi raya – it’s on them to bring a stitch of evidence, be it logic or scientific – and there’s none. The only argument that’s made is that if we’re here, then whatever happened to make us probably happened elsewhere, since it’s just an accidental occurrence after all.May 23, 2022 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #2090093Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Avira, yes, this seems like a chazoka – most people I met so far were not aliens (upon verification in case of doubt). So, if someone presents himself as an alien, he needs to prove it.May 24, 2022 12:31 am at 12:31 am #2090105
Just for fun, here is a different argument. It used to be thought that the world was the center of existence. Now it is known that the universe is far more complex and much larger than we could comprehend. Yet, we are undoubtedly very much here and alive. In all this complexity we (humans) are very much alone. Alternatively, within the complexity there exists parallels that are similar to us. Since the purpose of all this complexity is only known to Hashem, He alone knows what the use of alien existence is.
The only dogmatic claim I would make is that if there is intelligent life forms, they would have been bestowed some form of revelation.May 24, 2022 1:21 am at 1:21 am #2090136
Yes, the heliocentric model disrupted the notion that humanity was the purpose of creation…for people who were simplistic and thought that every physical part of creation must be in sync with philosophical concepts.
There are two options.
1. We’re not really that important, the universe was not really created for people to bestow godliness and to be maitiv lezulaso, and we are merely a spec of dust in an unfathomably large universe.
2. Not every physical element of creation matches its philosophical counterpart. Treif food doesn’t land you in the hospital. Muktzeh items don’t scream “shabbls hayom” when moved on shabbos, and many other inconsistencies that are part of the world being a dark place where Hashem is hidden.
Which one have you chosen, and were you even aware of it?
You’re agreeing that there must have been a revelation for there to have been intelligent life. I already addressed this in my supposedly “pretzel” theology, if you were following. There’s only one Torah; “lo sehay torah acheres ma’es haboreh”, there will be no other Torah from the creator. The Torah contains the 7 mitzvos bnei noach, and the 613 for us. No other torah was or will be given.
You’ve yet to respond to my “mahayche taysoh” point. We have zero reason as Torah jews to have a hava amina that there’s intelligent life. We have just as much reason to accept the tooth fairy – if someone found a tooth fairy, fine, but until such time, there’s no reason to even reckon with such a concept. The reason why goyim consider it is because of evolution and materialistic notions.May 24, 2022 1:35 am at 1:35 am #2090142
I think you misunderstood. Nothing to do with heliocentricity. We know assume that Creation was not just the beginning of Earth, but the entirety of the cosmos. [The general thinking used to be reversed.]
There are many more philosophical options. Who cares? And since when do you do philosophy?May 24, 2022 1:45 am at 1:45 am #2090146
Haven’t addressed 2 crucial points: there’s only one Torah, and there’s no reason to assume that there are aliens from a torah perspective.
I don’t do external philosophy. I’m familiar with the geonim and rishonim.May 24, 2022 9:52 am at 9:52 am #2090245
I think the Torah prefers that we focus our thoughts on what’s within our realm of activities. [Kifi shitasi. Keyaduah.] I only interleaved, because you said it had to be a certain way. The Torah would also have us not focus on politics, sporting, manners of dress, types of food, and almost every topic discussed on these pages. You and I can socialize over Chabad or Derech Hayeshiva. Others can bend their minds over aliens. In short, the Torah’s perspective on aliens is to find something better to think about.May 24, 2022 9:53 am at 9:53 am #2090246
Please elaborate your one Torah point. If we would know of an inhabited planet that has the Torah as it pertains to them, why would that be a difficulty?May 24, 2022 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #2090361Reb EliezerParticipant
Hashem on purpose put the sun in the center in order to eliminate our gaiva but the world was created for the Bnei Yisrael as Bereishis indicates בשביל ישראל שנקרא ראשית and בשביל התורה שנקרא ראשית.May 24, 2022 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #2090380MarxistParticipant
I think the point of bringing up heliocentrism is that the common sense view before that was that since the Torah was given to us and that is the purpose of the creation of the world it would make very good practical sense that the earth was the center of the universe. Now, we know that it is not. So we understand that the common sense view is not any better than a more complex one. Similarly, commons sense tells us that there would be no other civilizations outside Earth, however, we now know that that with regards to the cosmos the common sense way of thinking is incorrect so we are open to the possibility that there could be a more complex plan at work.May 24, 2022 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2090392
You made it very clear. Thanks!May 24, 2022 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2090415GadolhadorahParticipant
A bit of circularity here….if we assume that Hashem has created ALL then by definition, every “new” discovery is “old news” in shamayim. Thus, there can never be a contradiction about whether a “new discovery” or “hypothesis” about the unknown is credible to a torah believer. If the first astronauts landing on Mars discover a Lipa Schmeltzer CD on the surface, it should be obvious how it got there. “shamayim” and “aretz” and everything within needs to be understood in a very expansive context.May 24, 2022 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #2090439Reb EliezerParticipant
AAQ, FYI, the above Midrash about creating worlds and destroying them is in Koheles (3,11) on the pasuk את הכל עשה יפה בעתו, everything Hashem made is as needed for its time.May 24, 2022 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #2090461
Marx, the difference is that being in the center would be sumbolic, withiut direct philosophical implications. Intelligent life without torah and purpose would be a direct contradiction, not nust from the סברא חיצונה as you describe.May 24, 2022 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #2090462
Also, there’s still zero reason to assume that there are aliens, you can’t say that heliocentric models somehow shoild make us ababdon all reason and just blindly follow the scientists.May 24, 2022 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #2090494
That is why I stated that there would be revelation on planet X. Intelligent life forms is a reasonable proposition. Though it may be a wild satirical guess.May 24, 2022 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #2090495
Alternatively, a statistical guess.May 24, 2022 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #2090567Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
interestingly, Greeks (Aristarchus) figured out that Earth runs around the sun and approximate distances to sun and moon, but his theory was rejected because they could not see any parallax from the stars. They did not figure out that stars are too far away.
another interesting question of antiquity – where visible stars (about 1000?) are all that is there, or there are more. Bava Basra talks about it.May 25, 2022 9:58 am at 9:58 am #2090750
Revelation would contradict the ikkar of there being only one TorahMay 25, 2022 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #2090854
I get that you think that the Torah is immutable, and therefore it is one. How does that impact revelation? It comes in all different visions, with varying levels of clarity.May 25, 2022 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #2090935
זאת התורה לא תהי מוחלפת ולא יהיה תורה אחרתMay 25, 2022 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #2090960
Correct. Exact quote. Why does that apply to revelation?May 25, 2022 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #2090961
Just to point out, to say they may have the same Torah should not bother you. I’m not saying that.May 25, 2022 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #2090974
Because revelation means the revelation of Hashem’s will, which is in the Torah (for goyim too). Since there can’t be another Torah, there won’t be another revelation elsewhere.May 25, 2022 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #2090991
Revelation means revelation.
His Will is also a revelation.
There could be revelation without delivering His Will.
Most of the reaction in TaNaCH does not directly effect His Will.
If that’s so, I do not follow why there can’t be bountiful revelations on planet x.May 25, 2022 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #2091047
Revealing what then? If not Hashem’s will, why is it consequential? That He exists? Avrohom learned that without revelation.May 25, 2022 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #2091079
I’m not saying that there are aliens. I have no clue if there is or isn’t. But we can’t rule out the possibilty, limiting Hashem, because we don’t know the reason. Do you know the reason why the CR was created?
No, I don’t think there is one, but that doesn’t mean there can’t be a reason, but I just don’t know that there is.May 25, 2022 10:52 pm at 10:52 pm #2091113
Ta, there’s zero reason to assume that there are aliens – no much more reason than to assume that there’s a pink banana shaped flying monkey whk can breathe fire and fly faster than the speed pf sound.
…. but what if there is? It can be said about any made up nonsense.May 26, 2022 1:07 pm at 1:07 pm #2091159
Revealing His Wisdom. There already had been revelation before Avraham. Like Ts said, we can’t guess a reason for there being aliens. But if there are aliens, than these must be a reason for them.May 26, 2022 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2091225
Maybe there is a pink banana-shaped flying monkey who can breathe fire and fly faster than the speed of sound. But nobody has such an opinion, so why would it even come up?
Over here, though, there are people who have opinions, and there is the source in shoftim, perek 5, passuk 23, where Rashi explains that one opinion is that this was a star. And the inhabitants of the star didn’t come to help in battle.
On the other side, this seems hard to understand because why specifically here should they have come? Why not when bnei yisrael were attacked by amalek, or when yehoshua conquered erets yisrael, or any other wars?
The general view probably follows the second opinion which Rashi says, this was a distinguished person who was near the battle field but failed to appear.
But, it still shows that there is and was an idea out there even by Rashi, that there could be other living beings on a different planet too. yes, it’s farfetched, & I don’t know if there is, but it’s totally possible!May 26, 2022 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #2091328
It’s also possible that is has a meaning in astrology. I have no idea what is or isn’t in astrology. I just made us that pshat. Aliens also I make it up. I’m clueless on both topics. Though I am an internationally known expert on pink banana-shaped flying monkeys.May 26, 2022 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #2091591☕️coffee addictParticipant
Michael drosnin in bible codes says there is aliens
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