Can you request an online purchase for delivery on shabbos??

Home Forums Shabbos! Can you request an online purchase for delivery on shabbos??

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  • #1797141

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Given the much greater degree of control we have today over delivery options for online purchases, can you make a purchase where delivery is specified for Shabbos? Specifically, given that you don’t know whether yidden will be involved in the handling of your package on Shabbos, does that mean you should conservatively specify another delivery date? While I suspect the vast percentage of Amazon drivers are not yidden, some may be and it is also people working the warehouses that may be yidden. Alternatively, these people will be working anyway whether or not you order and would simply avoid making a separate stop at your home.

    #1797483

    ubiquitin
    Participant

    There is no reason to assume yidden are delivering or handling your package.

    That said, the issue is goyim. There is an issur of amira leakum. You cant tell a goy to do melacha for you

    #1797505

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    GH,

    I think if you don’t need it until later (Monday) it’s not a problem it’s his choice when you get it

    #1797515

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You can’t request an online purchase be delivered on Shabbos because of amira l’akum, but Amazon doesn’t have a “Shabbos” option, they sometimes give you a Saturday option. That means it might be delivered up to 8pm or even 9pm, which, at this time of year, is several hours after Shabbos is over.

    #1797519

    Joseph
    Participant

    There’s a Halacha that you cannot mail a letter on Erev Shabbos since it will be on Shabbos. This principle applies here to. If it is obvious the package will be on Shabbos, you cannot initiate that action before Shabbos.

    #1797522

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    When you mail an ordinary letter on erev Shabbos, you are not telling them to deliver it on Shabbos. The United States Post Office makes no guarantees on regular first class mail.

    #1797526

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The US Post Office does it for there benefit and the majority are non-Jews. See SA O’CH 247,1.

    #1797550

    akuperma
    Participant

    The only way one can do that is to buy on Friday, and pay extra money for Shabbos delivery. Outside of New York (or Israel), one can be reasonably sure that you aren’t paying a Jew to do work for you on Shabbos (though there are occasional non-frum Jewish blue collar employees elsewhere as well). Perhaps it would be better to save money and not pay for next-day delivery when you order on Friday.

    #1797552

    Just wondering if your trash pickup is shabbos day, do you not put it out because maybe the sanitation person is a yid?

    #1797553

    Joseph
    Participant

    How do you explain that people don’t send mail on Erev Shabbos?

    #1797576

    kollelman
    Participant

    Mailing before Shabbos is fine. Specifically ordering the goy to deliver on Shabbos may be an issue. In the case of Amazon, even if you can consider the click “Amira”, it goes through many layers of computers and several goyim and would be considered that one goy told the other, which is fine.

    #1797588

    Joseph
    Participant

    If you send a package overnight on Friday, or if you place an order on Friday with overnight delivery (or two-day delivery on Thursday), you know you are specifically requesting delivery on Shabbos.

    UPS and FedEx used to have an option to specifically request Saturday delivery.

    #1797591

    funnybone
    Participant

    Why is it okay to leave out garbage for sanitation workers on Shabbos?

    #1797642

    Because they wont come into a private driveway and take it out for you.

    #1797645

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I thought this was a simple matter but apparently not. Only in SOME cases does Amazon explicitly let you know at the time of ordering that you will get ‘next day delivery” so that if you order erev shabbos, you are fairly certain it will come on shabbos, In some cases, you don’t even have the option of requesting “slower” delivery if the next day is the standard delivery option as is increasingly the trend. Perhaps easiest option is to defer all your online shopping to Sundays.

    #1797597

    MoneyHalacha.com
    Participant

    This question/video was highlighted on the front page of Yeshiva World for most of yesterday in a video from MoneyHalacha.com. Theres a different video live right now on the YWN front page as well.

    Heres the video link :
    https://www.moneyhalacha.com/can-i-order-on-amazon-with-guaranteed-saturday-delivery/

    Some of the other questions of this thread are also answered in the videos:
    https://www.moneyhalacha.com/

    #1797727

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Lowerourtuition, maybe in 11210 they won’t come into a private driveway, but they will in 11581. I don’t know if they have Saturday pickup, but they certainly have Yom Tov pickup.

    #1797719

    TheFakeMaven
    Participant

    It is not an issue. Amirah LeAmirah is allowed.

    #1797754

    yy: NYC provides for curbside collection.

    DSNY provides free regularly scheduled curbside and containerized
    garbage and recycling collection services for every residential household,
    public school, public building, and many large institutions in New York
    City. Curbside sites are collected either two or three times per week
    and containerized sites are collected from one to three times per week,
    depending upon individual need, which is based on population density.

    #1797815

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How do you explain that people don’t send mail on Erev Shabbos?

    Perhaps am ha’aratzus, perhaps as a chumra because they’re concerned there might be a Yid who will be involved in the delivery.

    #1797817

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is not an issue. Amirah LeAmirah is allowed.

    This is not true. In certain instances of great necessity, we can consider it a sh’vus d’shvus. Even a full fledged sh’vus d’shvus is only muttar under certain circumstances.

    To say a blanket statement that amira l’amira is muttar is very misleading.

    #1797824

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    If there really is an issur on knowingly taking an action that you know has a material likelihood of resulting in “avodah” on Shabbos, possibly by a yid, there are many actions in our daily lives that need to be reexamined and potentially changed.

    #1797843

    Joseph
    Participant

    Gadol: So start reexamining and changing. That’s a serious point. In Eretz Yisroel many don’t even use municipal electricity on Shabbos.

    #1797907

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    DY See Chasam Sofer O’CH 60 who says that amira deamira erev shabbos is mutar.

    #1797924

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “In Eretz Yisroel many don’t even use municipal electricity on Shabbos…”

    Reb Yosef: And you somehow think the chumrah of not using IEC/local muni distribution power on Shabbos is a positive? Check on how many fires and injuries have resulted from a bunch of ehrliche yidden illegally (and electrically inappropriately) interconnecting their own portable “Shabbos generators” so that they can go off the grid for Shabbos. Not something I would encourage, even in the name of shamiras Shabbos.

    #1797983

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    R’ Eliezer, see מנחת יצחק ח’ ו’ סי’ י”ח for a discussion of this issue, with many poskim mentioned (including the חו”י and מה’ גרשון mentioned by חת”ס), and his conclusion that guaranteed Shabbos delivery would only be muttar in case of great need.

    #1797995

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, the חת”ס isn’t mattir outright; he says אין ראיה לאסור כולי האי. It should also be noted that the case he was talking about was indeed one of great need.

    #1798034

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    DY, you yourself said above that there is no garantee from the Post Office.

    #1798043

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    If sent express, there must be a great need, otherwise why pay extra and the Minchas Yitzchok is matir in that case, otherwise it is not guaranteed that it will arrive on shabbos.

    #1798048

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, you yourself said above that there is no garantee from the Post Office.

    Right. The reason it’s muttar to mail an ordinary letter on erev Shabbos, even without there being a great need, is because you’re not asking for it to be delivered on Shabbos; not because it’s amirah l’amirah, which is only muttar in case of great need.

    #1798056

    Joseph
    Participant

    But if you order from Amazon on Friday with Amazon guaranteeing overnight delivery (or guaranteeing two-day delivery for a Thursday order), you know in advance that they are guaranteeing delivery on Shabbos.

    #1798096

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Even it is guaranteed, the person who brings the package to you is not the one you talked to, so this is an amira deamira before shabbos and by paying extra reflects a great need which would be mutar as the goy is doing it
    for his own benefit and the payment is agreed on before hand.

    #1798108

    Joseph
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer, You’re not paying extra for the guaranteed Shabbos delivery if you have Amazon Prime, as the express shipping is included for free.

    #1798133

    Milhouse
    Participant

    How do you explain that people don’t send mail on Erev Shabbos?

    What people? I’ve never heard of such people and doubt they exist. Maybe you don’t do this, but you are only “person”, not “people”.

    And as Daasyochid pointed out, even if you are guaranteed Saturday delivery that is not necessarily Shabbos. It’s the nochri’s choice whether to make the delivery on Shabbos or after, so there is no problem at all.

    #1798200

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    But if you order from Amazon on Friday with Amazon guaranteeing overnight delivery (or guaranteeing two-day delivery for a Thursday order), you know in advance that they are guaranteeing delivery on Shabbos.

    If you order on Thursday for Saturday, they usually technically could deliver it before Shabbos, so their delivering it on Shabbos is “ada’ta d’nafsgei” so not a problem.

    The same idea could be true in the winter even if ordering on Friday. They could start the process before Shabbos,band deliver it after Shabbos, and get the package to you on Motzaei Shabbos without having done any melacha on Shabbos. The fact that they might actually do melacha on Shabbos isn’t your concern in that case as well.

    #1798202

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Even it is guaranteed, the person who brings the package to you is not the one you talked to, so this is an amira deamira before shabbos and by paying extra reflects a great need

    If there isn’t actually a great need, paying extra doesn’t make it muttar. The Minchas Yitzchak said that not as a heter going forward, but rather as a limud z’chus for those who were sending packages for Shabbos delivery.

    #1798216

    Joseph
    Participant

    “The same idea could be true in the winter even if ordering on Friday.”

    DY, and a summer order on Friday where Amazon Prime guarantees next day delivery (or any time of the year when Shabbos ends after UPS/FedEx’s guaranteed delivery time)?

    #1798251

    Mammele
    Participant

    I was always under the impression that the opposite is true, as long as you’re not paying extra for them to deliver on Shabbos or Yom Tov it’s okay. But that assumption was based on the Psak at a place I worked at way back. They shipped orders via UPS (and maybe Fedex) — and UPS Ground from NY to NY generally doesn’t take more than a day. Saturday, and Next Day deliveries cost extra, so they wouldn’t ship that way on an Erev, but regular, not expedited shipping was allowed anytime.

    Nowadays with Amazon I hate Saturday deliveries as I have to peek out the window to see who’s buzzing and run down to manually open the door (as early as 8 am) so I try to avoid it. And I’ve had Postal delivery guys lie (this was during the week) and note they unsuccessfully attempted delivery when they never did so they don’t miss Amazon’s “by 8:00 PM” promise.

    My point is that their compliance is far from 100%, so I wonder if that could be a mitigating factor. OTOH IIRC you get a $10. reward if they fail to deliver as promised and you complain, so there’s definitely pressure to deliver on time for all involved.

    #1798313

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Amazon prime is accelerating for anytime, so you are not mechaven for shabbos, and we have amira deamira from erev shabbos. the goy does it for his own benefit payed a fixed amount ahead of time should be mutar.

    #1798479

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    My point is that their compliance is far from 100%, so I wonder if that could be a mitigating factor.

    Not really. The point is that you’re not allowed to ask them to do work for you on Shabbos. The fact that they won’t always listen to you doesn’t make it okay.

    #1798478

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY, and a summer order on Friday where Amazon Prime guarantees next day delivery (or any time of the year when Shabbos ends after UPS/FedEx’s guaranteed delivery time)?

    If it’s ordered late enough so that it can’t be delivered by the promised time without driving (or any melacha) ocurring on Shabbos, it would be assur barring an extenuating circumstance.

    #1798483

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Amazon prime is accelerating for anytime, so you are not mechaven for shabbos, and we have amira deamira from erev shabbos. the goy does it for his own benefit payed a fixed amount ahead of time should be mutar.

    It’s muttar if the request can be fulfilled without doing melacha on Shabbos; normally assur if the request cannot be fulfilled without doing melacha on Shabbos (except in extenuating circumstances).

    So for example, if you order something late Friday afternoon in the summer, so in order to deliver it by the 8 or 9pm promised delivery time, some melacha needs to be done on Shabbos, it would normally be prohibited.

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