Cancel Bein HaZemanim

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    As is well known, our national defense is a combination of physical hishtadlus by our soldiers, and spiritual hishtadlus by our lomdei Torah. I light of the ongoing war and the very scary threats of Iran and Hezbollah, how could our Benie Yeshivos go on Bein HaZemanim as usual? Our soldiers are gearing up for physical protection… but our spiritual protectors are going home for vacation?


    my rosh yeshiva told me that when the yom kippur war they cancelled bein hazmanim. while he agreed that it was the right thing to do he said the following zman was very shvach


    I had the same question, but the roshei yeshiva know better. Despite the danger of the government drafting bochurim, the terrorists….they still said bein hazmanim should stay in place.

    Maybe the cheshbon is that without it, the bochurim won’t be learning flasig anyways. It might be proper, but maybe they’re not ready for that kind of sacrifice, which might harm their learning next zman.


    Just a reminder – This zman started early when the last bain hazmanim was cancelled right after sukkos. And that’s with a second Adar as well.


    Avira and sensible- I agree that they need a break. Even the soldiers can’t do what they do 24/7. But maybe in these times we need to stagger bein hazemanim. Just like you can’t have all the soldiers taking off at the same time which would leave the nation defenseless… Having all the yeshivos on break the same time leaves a huge hole.


    each yeshiva has its own rules, no one is stopping anyone from learning


    The bochurim who are real bnai Aliyah prepare to have chavrusa for BZ and learn solid.


    Harav EMS wrote his famous sefarim on subjects that he learned בין הזמנים. That is a הוראה to learn those inyanim at that time just as the RY did.


    I guess for those who claim that learning is a substitute for fighting, it is a hard question … maybe either students can learn on their own, or go do food deliveries to the army during the break.


    AAQ’s suggestion of the bochurim performing some form of public service during the break has great merit and might be seen as a small but significant effort to mitigate the extreme polarization on the draft issue.

    ☕️coffee addict

    Wow, Joe ticking off a mod with nivul peh!

    I wouldn’t have expected any different


    Even if the bochurim need a break, does it need to be over a month? I know a lot of hard-working people in the secular world (doctors, attorneys, CPAs, finance, etc…), and they’re lucky if they get a month off over the entire year. They still seem to be functioning.

    Lovely. Tell them they are in the wrong profession


    The OP is a less than zero to publicly berate the Gedolei Roshei HaYeshivos and to give them instructions on how to run their Yeshivos. Does he seriously think the Gedolei Roshei HaYeshivos didn’t ever think of his brainstorm?

    It would have been half an issue if he suggested this to the Gedolei Roshei HaYeshivos privately; but who the blazes does he think he is to give a public reprimand or even public collective advice to them on how to conduct their Yeshivos?

    Now let’s have the Zionist army reduce time off for all soldiers, secular or not, and have them all spend 20% of their off time in a Yeshiva. Rather than trying to change the less than 10% of the people on how much learning they need to increase, when they’re already dedicating their lives for years of dedicated full time Limud Torah, work on the over 90% who spend zero time on Limud Torah to give an hour a day or even two weeks a year dedicated to Torah.


    Mod > Lovely. Tell them they are in the wrong profession

    Lovely. These are the same doctors who you call any time of the day when you need them, you can tell them directly.

    Where is Torah asks for, or allows, vacations other than shabbos & yomim tovim?!

    Doctors told Netziv to go on vacation to the lakes. He ran away from there back to yeshiva.

    your lack of awareness of the value of learning is well known here. I would not have bothered responding had you said it.


    Mod, you touched on my biggest concern – that the current state of affairs confuses our values:

    Various groups defend their derech by insisting that Torah and their derech is one and the same. This is not necessarily said by the leaders, but it becomes part of the group mentality. And then questioning the derech becomes associated with questioning the Torah. Something that Adam & Have got confused with the tree … In this case – surely, you can read in my post above that I am quoting Netziv’s personal view that it is impossible to go on vacation from learning. And surely I am quoting learning of others in many places. And maybe it is harder to see, but I can assure you that my concern about people approaching Torah with incorrect (in my view) values is out of concern for the Torah and Torah learning. In this case, I replied to you as you statement sounded like making fun of people engaged in mitzvos, as doctors surely are for working too hard. What is next – making fun of Satmar from spending time in the hospitals? (and I confirmed w/ a Lakewood rov that doctors who have right attitudes are indeed engaged in chesed, no less than those who are doing chesed without having a medical job).



    The Netziv was ONE Rosh Yeshiva. Arguably the biggest of all time. It’s nice of you to choose him (albeit without bringing a source) while omitting all the other great Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim.


    Forgive me if I’m wrong, but are you the same poster (aka troller) who hasn’t listened to music for over 6 months? Do you have children? Do you think that’s the best thing for them? Really???!!!!

    There have been tough times for Klal Yisroel since the beginning of time. Those who weren’t in the crosshairs spent time davening, learning, raising money for Vaad Hatzalah (WWII), and LIVING THEIR LIVES!!!



    I am not that poster.

    Do I think what is the best thing for them? Cancelling Bein HaZemanim? I did not mean to suggest that they shouldn’t have a break… we are human. But the Lomdei Torah are a part of our protection just like our soldiers. Can all the soldiers take a break at the same time? Can we leave our nation defenseless? When they need a break, it’s staggered… there’s always the majority of the soldiers on duty. If the reason the Lomdei Torah don’t serve is because they are also in the crosshairs serving as our defense, then shouldn’t their defensive contribution be around the clock? Different yeshivos taking their breaks at different times so there are always Lomdei Torah serving in our defense?


    pekak, I just quoted Newtziv because I knew the story to illustrate his personal view of vacations. I don’t know how other roshei yeshivos spend their free time, never met one at a beach … I do understand that many people need time to recharge, and there are psakim to that, just trying to keep in mind what the ideal is.

    As to high-intensity jobs, I think, many of such people, including myself, should consider reducing their hours and spending them learning themselves and with their family. It is very alluring to use your expertise on the job when you are a baki ( as Resh Lakish responded to R Yohanan’s comment about sword making – “I was called Rabbi there and I am called Rabbi here”), but Torah and education (and they personally) will probably benefit if people with proven thinking and organizational abilities contribute more. As R Twersky writes “none of the older patients ever said – I did not spend enough time in the office” and in another place – a kid suggest paying his father psychiatrist his hourly rate to spend time with the kid.


    Back during the Yom Kippur War, Rav Chaim Shmulevitz zt”l said bein hazmanim should be canceled. Rav Shach zt”l argued and said that bitulo hu kiyumo. Rabbi Gershon Ribner shlita mentioned this a few months ago. So it’s an old machlokes.


    So, maybe ben hazmanim is an opportune time to demonstrate concern for Am Yisroel – bikur cholim, make sedorim in Gaza and Nevotim, help soldiers, work in places where someone is deployed, babysit kids in families whose fathers are in the army and mothers are working …


    Most yeshivos don’t have a month. And even if it’s a month, that includes a week and a half of pesach so it’s not a month off. And during the zman theyre in yeshiva 7 days a week. I can say that my sons learns almost as much being hazmanim as during the zman. He learns a full first and night seder and depending on how much help I need for the afternoon.
    The boys need a break. They need to be home. The men too, they need to be around their families.


    Why aren’t you at least as worried, and as demanding, that all Israeli soldiers have their leave curtailed and, instead, all soldiers be mandated to spend one full week in the Beis Medrash — a place most of them never yet entered in their life.


    UJM- Because you can’t force Talmud Torah. Unfortunately, the secular soldiers aren’t ma’aminim, they don’t believe in the protective value of Talmud Torah. That can’t be forced upon them. What their role is, is to serve in our physical protection. And one day, hopefully they will acknowledge the truth and join us in the Beis Midrash.

    But the Charedi world do value Talmud Torah not only as an individual mitzvah, but as a zechus for the nation. And when our nation needs protection, we should have round-the-clock protection- both from those on the front lines, and those in the Beis Midrash. Additionally, unlike our secular brothers, the Charedim also see the value in having an army, of needing regular hishtadlus through teva. So those who aren’t learning should certainly serve with the rest of Klal Yisroel. Just like the Dati Leumi soldiers who value both- they spend years in yeshiva and years in the army… they invest in both modes of protection that they acknowledge are necessary. It gives me such chizuk seeing the pictures of soldiers sitting in Khan Yunis and other places in Gaza with a sefer learning, or making in minyanim. This is what Tzivos HaShem looks like.

    Sam Klein

    I heard that in BMG in Lakewood there is no bein Hazemanim. As soon as Tisha B’av is over, they give you a Danish and they start Yarchei Kallah immediately. As soon as Yom Kippur is over they give you a Danish and then give you 4 days to learn Gemara Sukka for the upcoming Yom tov to Sukkos. That’s the latest I heard recently.

    anonymous Jew

    I know you, and others mean well, but neither armies of military soldiers or learning soldiers have any guarantee of protective value. From recent times ( Holocaust, pogroms ) to ancient times ( Menashe, Herod and the Romans slaughtering thousands of chachomim and tens of thousands of other Jews) and times in between ( Crusader massacres, blood libel massacres, Inquisition, forced conversions ) learning hasn’t protected us. There are those who say that there were other events that learning prevented. Even if true, they couldn’t have been much worse than those that did.


    Simcha: Just as you can’t force secular soldiers to spend 1% of their waking time, instead of 0%, in a Beis Medrash, you can’t force those that spend 90% of their waking hours in the Beis Medrash to spend 95% of their time there.


    UJM- I’m not necessarily suggesting more time. But rescheduling it. And again… if that’s your response, then you missed my point. You can’t compare asking the secular to do something that they don’t believe in with asking Bnei Yeshiva to do something they do believe in.


    Anon, chazal were fully aware of their own history – that’s how you know about the tragedies that you describe. And they say that Torah protects us.

    You’re just spewing kefirah and it’s not helpful in a time of tzarah.

    Torah protects in ways above our understanding. It also doesn’t prevent every decree – do you think the churban, Holocaust, crusades, etc…happened all of the sudden? There were warnings of calamities from.neviim and gedolim. People ignored them, and so they came; you might ignore them too because you’ll think “we’ve had suffering before even when I think we’re been behaving well”


    Rather than acknowledge a kasha and seek a terutz, you just conclude that chazal were acceptable when they give you the history but not acceptable when they say repeatedly that Torah protects us.

    What is meant on a simple level is that Torah gives us a kiyum,an existence, which is a huge miracle, while among hostile nations. The fact that we haven’t been wiped out despite attempts by everyone in every generation is a bigger neis than krias yam suf, says rav yaakov emden.


    Avira, what did chazal say are reasons for BM2 churban?!


    When R Grozdensky was asked in 1940 Vilna who should use Sugihara visas – older T’Ch who would be first targets of upcoming occupation or younger ones whose children will be taken to anti-religious schools, he suggested – older ones because (1) they’ll be more useful to American Jews (2) they’ll be in a better position to help politically to those who remain. He did not suggest to simply sit down and learn better.


    AAQ: The Gemorah says one of the reasons was because the woman went outside non-tzniusdik.


    >> Gemorah says one of the reasons

    Preposterous to quote chazal’s “one of the reasons”. R Eliezer said about some people that they should not be taught Gemora so that they do not use it for shtuyos.


    @Sam Klein

    BMG Yarchei Kallah is NOT part of BMG.


    Yeshivos and Kollelim can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that you are the REAL protection for the country and then abandon your post for an entire month. Does that mean than if anyone is CV killed during bein Hazmanim that the Bnei Yeshivos will take the blame?

    Those who are arguing that everyone needs a break is OK up until the point of comparing it to the rest of the world. How many other professions (other than teaching) give 10 weeks of vacation a year? Do the chayalim get that much vacation?


    Even for those who argue we can’t cancel bein Hazmanim, what about modifying it? Wouldn’t that also send a message to the chilonim that the Bnei Yeshivos are taking this war (and sharing the burden) seriously?


    AAQ: Why do you think that citing an open Chazal in the Gemorah is “shtuyos”? Just because you disagree with that Chazal doesn’t make is shtuyos.


    > Why do you think that citing an open Chazal

    because I asked what are opinions and you are quoting one, even as presumably you know more. I don’t know why someone will talk like that. Why not mention judges who are strict in applying halocha (Bava Metzia) or Gittin or Nedorim or kohanim fighting in Tosefta?


    “Wouldn’t that also send a message to the chilonim that the Bnei Yeshivos are taking this war (and sharing the burden) seriously?”

    Let the chilonim first send a message to the Torah community that they are taking this war seriously and sharing the burden by spending some time in the Beis Medrash.

    Then we can talk.


    Rocky, why not modify it to show ahavas for the other Yidden and go out and support them? _if_ the mitzva of talmud torah does not apply during bein hazmanim, why not do other mitzvos at that time.


    UJM_your logic highlights one major flaw in the message put out by the Chareidi world. Just because you have a certain belief and appreciation of the Torah, having an elitist and disconnected mentality will not draw the other person closer to your way of thinking. Your argument goes something like

    “Why don’t the chilonom appreciate our Torah.? Don’t they know that Torah holds up the world?!
    No, they don’t. They value learning gemara as much as a college student studying ancient Latin texts. Imagine one of these discussions.

    Reuven: My brother, who was a father of five, was just killed in the war, and his children will grow up orphans. My neighbors have similar tragedies. Shimon, why do you think you are better than us, and why can’t you also fight?”

    Shimon: “Me fight? Soldiers are losers. Don’t you know that I study Latin! Try it sometime and you will see how difficult it is. ”

    Reuven: “Maybe you can cut down on your extended vacation time and contribute in some way to the wat effort or at least show some appreciation to those who are laying down their lives for you?”

    Shimon: Me show appreciation? You should appreciate how much Latin I study!. Latin students are so rare we need more of us!” Don’t you dare consider cutting off our funding1 The study of Latin is holding up the world!


    Rocky: Your logic highlights one major flaw in the message put out by the chiloni world. Just because you have a certain belief and appreciation of the military, having an elitist and disconnected mentality will not draw the other person closer to your way of thinking. Your argument goes something like

    “Why don’t the Chareidim appreciate our military? Don’t they know that military protects the Jews?!
    No, they don’t. They value enlisting in the military as much as a security guard protecting the bank vault.



    According to you, the secular Israeli’s who are fighting, bleeding and dying to defend Jews against bloodthirsty terrorists have no right to be critical of the charedim who are not doing so. They should somehow realize that their efforts are really accomplishing nothing and only the charedim’s learning is worth anything, despite their taking this entire month off. Efforts to raise consciousness about the hostages, such as posting signs and writing letters should be mocked. In addition, the state of Israel is a bastard and there have never been any miracles in the wars since 1948 since according to the Satmar Rebbe, zt”l, a da’as yachid, it’s all the work of the Statan.

    Your twisted logic, unfortunately shared by so many of your myopic ilk, highlights why the charedim are reviled as parasites by so many in Israel. You must be very proud.


    UJM-I am sorry that I overestimated your sense of logic and reason. Please correct me if I am wrong but you seem to imply that

    1) The army is just a silly invention created by the chilinim and is not really necessary at all since the people who are learning are all the protection we need

    2) The Chareidim owe zero hakoras hatov to those who are killed or wounded in the army because they had no business going into battle anyway (refer to point #1

    3) Having an army is not really a form of hishtadlus or an at best it is overkill. After all who need more than one security guard to protect a bank vault?

    4) Jews fighting in an army is just some 20th-century Zionist creation. We do not see anywhere in Jewish history that Jews fought in wars and if they did they were bad people who should have been in the Bais Medrash.

    Please tell me if you disagree on any of these points


    Dofi: According to you, the Chareidim who are dedicated their entire lives, morning, noon and nights learning Torah Hakedosha every day, to defend Jews against bloodthirsty terrorists have no right to be critical of the chilonim who are not doing so. They should somehow realize that their efforts are really accomplishing nothing and only the chilonim’s army service is worth anything, despite their taking time off duty and going on furlough.

    Rocky: Please correct me if I am wrong but you seem to imply that —

    1) Limud Torah is just a silly invention like studying Egyptology created by the Chareidim to dodge the draft and is not really necessary at all since the people who are in the army are all the protection we need

    2) The Chilonim owe zero hakoras hatov to those who dedicate their lives to Limud Torah because they had no business becoming full time masmidim anyways (refer to point #1)

    3) Having a full Kollel is not really a form of hishtadlus or at best it is overkill. After all who needs more than one security guard to protect a bank vault or more than one person to study Egyptology?

    4) Jews learning in Kollel is just some 20th-century Chareidi creation. We do not see anywhere in Jewish history that Jews learn Torah so much. And if they did they were bad people who should have been in the Czar’s Army or whichever Army that was protecting the country they were living in.



    Correct, charedim have no right to be critical of those who don’t know anything about Torah while they literally spill their blood to defend those who learn. The secular have every right to be disgusted when they then see them taking an entire month off. The superior attitude of you and your vile NK heroes is why they consider charedim to be parasites.

    Doing my best

    From what I understand, the army has mostly left Gaza. That means that they are mostly not fighting. Why? I don’t know, I guess they have a cheshbon why in the long run it’s better if there is a break in the fighting. Same goes for Bein Hazmanim. Get it? It just don’t work uddawise.
    And besides, your average bochur is learning everyday for multiple hours, and many Yungerleit are learning for the majority of the day, just in a more relaxed setting.

    Also, many people seem to think that learning Torah is basically sitting in a chair reading all day, and you don’t even have to read the whole time because your chavrusa reads for half the time, you can just sit and listen! Let me tell you, you have no idea what learning is. When I was in Oorah, I remember the guys in the college aged program coming out of the bais medrash after just an hour of serious learning and talking among themselves about how their energy was completely sapped and there is no way they could do that full time. The amount of thinking being done straight for long periods of time is not comparable to almost anything in the world.
    Not that I’m comparing the hardship of learning to facing and risking death in a Hamas tunnel, but don’t think chareidim are a bunch of couch potatoes.

    And for the complaints about Chareidi messaging; well I’m sorry, but we just don’t have anything better to say than that Torah protects everybody in a real and serious way. If someone doesn’t understand that, “ein hachah nami”, there is nothing for us to say. That’s what our fathers passed down through the generations, going all the way back to Sinai. If you don’t believe in our Mesorah then you are plain and simple lost. A gutten tog.


    Dofi: We have just as much right to being disgusted at soldiers for taking a few weeks off duty, as they are disgusted at Bnei Torah leaving Yeshiva for a few weeks bein hazmanim — when the Bnei Torah are anyways still learning Torah even outside the Yeshiva.

    But in reality the chilonim are disguised at Bnei Torah for being *in* Yeshiva; not at them taking a few weeks *off*. They demand Bnei Torah leave the Yeshiva altogether to join the zionist army whose reputation throughout the world is of its mixed gender immorality and carnal depravity.



    “we just don’t have anything better to say than that Torah protects everybody in a real and serious way”

    A bit of heartfelt gratitude to those who fight might allow that message to penetrate. Instead, too many charedi leaders publicly declare that the solders’ sacrifices are worthless and that Tehillim shouldn’t even be recited for them.



    Your claim that many charities leaders declare that the soldiers sacrifices are worthless is a disgusting and blatant lie. What is worse is that you know it is a lie, and the only point of your post was to foment hate. No different than those at Columbia and the other Universities.

    The signs in EY all say “Byachad Nenatzeach”. You are just trying to minimize any Achdus. For shame.

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