Cancel Pesach Programs

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  • #1839256
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    The President’s just announced a ban on ANY travel to and from Europe until mid-April. That will obviously affect many who planned to travel to the U.S. from Europe to spend Yom Tov here in the U.S. along with any with flight plans transiting European airports. Likewise, many state and local governments have imposed various bans on public gatherings. Wouldn’t it be wise NOW to cancel the many Pesach programs at hotels where Yidden from all over the country are pushed together for a week to 10 days with a substantially enhanced risk of exposure/spread of the virus. Now that we know that someone may think they are 100% healthy and not have any obvious links to areas of exposure can still carry the virus, it would seem beyond stupid to allow these programs to go forward. Making Pesach at home will be a much lesser burden than C’V having to deal with illness of family, especially elderly, that could have been avoided.

    #1839272

    As with any other business it should be up to the “owners” of these programs to make the decision based upon the directives of the local board of health. If individual families want to cancel out of their reservation they have the right but will probably have some portion of their deposit be forfeited as per their contract,

    #1839278
    mra01385
    Participant

    Gadolhadorah you are so right that all Pesach hotels should cancel their programs. However, many programs will not cancel because they don’t want to lose all that money. Instead they are now advertising that they will disinfect all the rooms kitchens, and common areas where lots of people gather, give out hand sanitizers to all guest, put out hand sanitizers throughout the hotel.

    #1839281
    Joseph
    Participant

    Some people literally don’t know how to make Pesach themselves.

    #1839283
    jdb
    Participant

    I personally would not go to a hotel right now. The challenge is that this is literally people’s parnassah. It’s very difficult to go bankrupt for a safety measure. There is no easy answer to this one.

    #1839292
    yehudayona
    Participant

    Actually the ban is for foreign nationals coming to the U.S. Citizens can come to the U.S., and I believe anyone can leave. Of course, this will cause havoc in flight schedules.

    #1839309
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Yehudayona.
    NOT Foreign Nationals………………………………
    US residents, not just citizens can come to the US from the EU under the ban.

    #1839306
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    To add to joe

    I know someone who goes away every year for the past 5-10 years and since he can’t go away it’s causing Shalom bayis problems because he’s not used to it

    #1839329
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    The Pesach Program at the CTL will go on as scheduled (I”H), BUT we are enforcing a 75 person limit. SO>>>none of the pregnant family members should give birth until after Pesach.

    We will hold all davening here and not walk to shul, as it would make the Yuntif services at shul exceed the 100 person suggested limit (soon to be mandatory) on public gatherings,

    #1839327
    Speltchallah
    Participant

    Canceling flights from Europe has nothing to do with American Pesach programs. Europe is way worse the US right now. Everyone needs to relax.

    #1839318
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Sorry, but anyone who is willing to rely for their health on assurances by a caterer that they will “sanitize” the hotel space they rent and hand out lots of hand cleaners is mamash crazy. These programs are money makers and the sponsors will already be financially hard-pressed by cancellations etc. Hotels are probably next in line to nursing homes and cruise ships as breeding grounds for viral infections. Its one thing if you check in at the lobby of a hotel (w/o standing on a line if possible) and walk to your room (preferably avoiding elevators as I did late last week) and avoid close contacts with others in meeting rooms/public spaces and check out without mingling with any other guests. Here its just the opposite.
    As to the “inconvenience” of making Peseach for some used to going away, you have 3 weeks to get ready and your local Rav/Rebbitzen will be glad to answer any questions. To put your family at risk for “convenience” or to avoid losing a deposit is truly mindless. We all take necessary risks in our lives for work, for davening (hopefully with a small minyan of those you know and trust to stay home if they have any symptoms etc) but this falls into the category of , bungi-jumping at a discount theme park.

    #1839361
    The little I know
    Participant

    Some people cannot make Pesach themselves, due to various limitations, and going to hotels is their only option. This covers many elderly couples. Easy for all the commenters here to blame those in the hotel business. These generalizations are offensive and ignorant. The midoh of rushing to blame is childish, and suggests stupidity. Calm down. Everyone needs to make educated decisions that are best for them. I happen to dislike the very thought of going away for Pesach. But that may be what is best for me. Maybe not for someone else.

    #1839370
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    GH – You cannot call making Pesach an inconvenience. For some young families who have previously gone to parents it is not about kvetching that they have work to do this year. It will cost THOUSANDS of dollars to make Pesach. Especially if you don’t have a kosher eruv available and will be home for many meals. Even if you are willing to use fancy disposable instead of purchasing brand new sets of dishes the “stuff” is as huge an expense as the food.

    #1839375

    GH: Once again, it is up to the indivdual to cancel his/her plans. You may think it is ” mamash crazy”, but unless the local Board of Health advises the hotel and or the pesach program to shut down, they have every right to continue their business operations. As I said to others this morning this becomes an “ein ldavar sof”. Are you going to shut down the MTA in NYC? all the supermarkets? You want to place yourself in a hazmat suit before walking out your front door? When the local Board of Health as we see in Bergen County NJ that issues a call for things like this, I agree. But to just start issuing your own edicts or suggestions may not be proper under the circumstances.

    #1839415
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “For some young families who have previously gone to parents it is not about kvetching that they have work to do this year. It will cost THOUSANDS of dollars to make Pesach”

    Obviously, everyone if free to make their own risk assessment regarding Pesach programs this year just about the time the spread of the virus will be peaking in the U.S. Packing a bunch of elderly into a hotel for 10 days to me seems mindless but that is their decision. Local shuls and mosdos have 3 weeks to organize small local efforts with families for those unable to prepare pesach on their own. If you are suggesting its cheaper for a young family to reserve one or two rooms in a hotel and pay the cost of all meals etc. for a peseach program, I don’t understand your math. A family can make peseach on a budget to the extent necessary using dispoaable tableware and takeout foods if they don’ have time to cook. That doesn’t cost THOUSANDs of dollars. Going to Florida or Arizona of even Long Beach for a hotel does cost thousands of dollars.

    #1839419
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Your habit of battuling things by using extremes is both dishonest and sometimes dangerous.
    I wasn’t talking about hotel programs. I said that it costs thousands to make pesach if you do not have any pesach items in your house. Your fantasy of take out food and disposables does not exist everywhere, and you don’t get to eat matza with jelly on a 9 cent paper plate for a yom tov meal.
    Perhaps you haven’t made pesach, haven’t foot the bill for pesach, or just don’t consider the chashivus of being mikabed the yamim tovim. I have no idea what your story is. But making pesach for a young tho not small family is minimally $2000.

    #1839422
    The little I know
    Participant

    GH:

    You continue with irresponsible generalizations. Not all hotels cramp elderly into a confined area. In fact, there are many who have areas for families to be together, but secluded from others. The implication of you last comment is that “people have their freedom to choose, but are stupid for going to hotels”. That attitude does not speak highly of either intellect, knowledge of the subject matter of hotels on Pesach, the subject of the pandemic. You seem intent on pushing your agenda on others, and that anyone who exercises their right to disagree is wrong.

    I don’t like hotels any more than you, and maybe even less. But my preferences relate to me, not to you, not to others.

    #1839495
    yudel
    Participant

    Beware, health depts may have to shut hotel programs een on eerev pesach or on yom. Tov itself, how can one take a chance?
    It may bbbe hard to make pesach at home, what are the options?
    Noach and family lived with all of the animals for a year enclosed, what was the alternative?

    #1839465

    GH: Pesach at home, if one has never made pesach before will cost thousands to set up. Pots, pans, sets of flatware, dishes, etc cost money. Also, they dont a have a list from last year to see what they used to figure out what to buy this year. While my wife looks at her list that she used 8 bags of sugar and 7 cans of potato starch, 22 dozen eggs and 24 lbs of matza, those staying home for the first time has to guess what they will need.

    #1839492
    ShloimieB
    Participant

    I have often helped my wife make Pesach in a rented apartment in Miami. This involved no cooking and purchasing all food items ready cooked. The total food and food related expense was under $2,000 per small family. This is substantially lower than anybody would guess and much loser than Hotel Programs.

    #1839503

    ShloimieB: Please define “small family” including ages of children. I know a small family of 5 but 3 of them are male teenagers.

    #1839515
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ShloimeB – that’s impressive. But what about the rental fee and the flights?

    #1839596
    ShloimieB
    Participant

    In my case small family was defined as Mother, Father and two children aged between 5 and 12. eating children sized portions of adult food.
    To Syag…The calculation of costs was for food and disposables only. The purposes of this post was to discuss direct costs and not to include airfare or rental costs.
    special note to LOwer our tuition, The food you listed was likely used for cakes. even if miscalculated and doubled it does not add up to a lot and that is for lots of cakes. I purchased cakes which are likely really bad for your health but more filling than homemade. I have to admit that the options for purchased Pesach food in Miami are possibly more available and lower cost than in NYC.

    #1839607
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Also, if the virus follows the exponential curve it has in China, Korea and Italy, don’t be surprised if local authorities order some of the programs to be cancelled in the next 2-3 weeks just before yom tov. That will leave some families scrambling at the last minute to make arrangements. As long as you have a contingency plan, maybe its not a concern for some but this thing is evolving so quickly I don’t think the worse case scenarios can be entirely ignored.

    #1839605
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I have made pesach at home for more years than I’d like to recall, both when we were younger and living in a smaller College town, in NYC and in other large cities. I’ve also been to hotels for the sedorim (and a Shabbos) and am generally familiar with their setups, although they vary greatly. I repeat my contention that a young family can make Pesach at home less costly than 10 days at a hotel. And regarding older people, there are always risks that can be mitigated, but most families do NOT pay additional charges for having their own sedorim in private rooms but participate in larger group venues. Again, its a personal choice, but I submit staying at home is generally less costly and certainly lower risk than travelling in the next few weeks to a hotel program.

    #1839612
    mra01385
    Participant

    Making Pesach at home for the first time for a family of 4 or 5 can easily cost a minimum of $1000. This includes, round shmura matza, some pots, cooking utensils such as mixing bowls, spoons, heaters, peelers, food processor etc. Pesach food is very expensive as well, especially take out food. Then you need paper goods as well. Additionally most people will spend quite a bit of money on cleaning help. This is why it’s very hard for people if they have to cancel their hotel program and start making Pesach now, since they have to start from scratch.

    #1839649
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    MRA01385. Thank you for your response. Could you please provide the name and location of the hotel where a “family of 4 or 5” can book at least 2 rooms for the entirety of yom tov ( 9 nights) for $1,000 or less? Most of the programs I looked at at resorts in New Jersey and Florida would charge several thousand dollars for a family of 4 plus travel costs.

    #1839635
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ShloimieB – I hear that, so you were agreeing with my claim? Pesach can’t be made for less then $2000 if everything is included. And if you Don’t include everything, then it doesn’t make much sense. I don’t even think there are take out options here. So unless I fly somewhere else and pay rent, I have to go according to local prices.

    #1839667
    CTRebbe
    Participant

    A few participants are making the point that making pesach at home will involve the one time cost of buying new pots, pans etc. Unless someone was planning to go to a hotel as a single person I highly doubt that the total expenses would be more than the cost of a hotel. If its a large family it is nearly impossible (unless you cook in solid gold pots and plan to install a special new top of the line pesach kitchen in your home).

    Even so, would it be such a bad thing if this would be the impetus to get a few more people to stay home for pesach? I think anyone over age 40 or so can attest that this mishgas of we NEED to go away for pesach is a relatively new phenomenon and perhaps it is time for everyone to rethink priorities? Just bec. it became the thing to do doesn’t mean we can start to use our brains and question if it is the wisest thing to do

    Some brought up the point of elderly folks who have no where else to go. I understand that there are some elderly Jews who really do not have family that they can go to. But if more of the 30-60 year olds would stay home and make their own pesach maybe we could have more opportunities to bring back the way things should be and have Bubby and Zaidy at the seder. My gut tells me that no matter how learned Grandfather is, it is much more important to have him tell over sipur yitzias mitzrayim at a seder than to have a 24 hour tea room and chol hamoed with a concert, moonbounce and fire juggler.

    #1839693
    ShloimieB
    Participant

    @ Syag
    No, I am not agreeing with you.
    We are not comparing to a Hotel we are discussing costs to be at home. Airfare and rental do not enter that equation.
    I will concede that South Florida has always had more options for prepared food and therefor more competitive pricing. Add an extra $200-500 and that will cover anyplace in the USA.

    #1839728

    shloimeb: Cakes, gefiltevfish, hard boiled eggs, matza brei, chicken breaded with mixture ofpotato starch and other ingredients, various kugels, pesach chulent, baked potats,cole slaw, salad dressings, just to name a few things off the top of my head.

    #1839743
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    ShloimieB- so are you saying you live in a rented apartment in south florida? Because if not, im not really sure how you can make a cheshbon for food in a tourist location and compare it to food everywhere else.

    #1839747
    yehudayona
    Participant

    TLIK brings up the situation of older people who go to hotels because it’s difficult for them to make Pesach at home. They’re precisely the demographic who’s most at risk from this virus.

    #1839748
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    GH, I get it. You don’t like hotel programs and you’re seizing on the virus as a reason to persuade people to stay home.

    Why does it bother you so much if people still plan on going?
    They are adults capable of coming to their own decisions without your input. So I respectfully suggest that you
    MYOB

    #1840231
    charliehall
    Participant

    We have never spent thousands on Pesach at home. And we eat well.

    #1840226
    charliehall
    Participant

    That US citizens and residents can return from Europe defeats the purpose of a travel ban. Viruses do not care about your nationality.

    #1840222
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Anonoymous Jew: If I wanted to “mind my own business” , I wouldn’t be posting opinions here in the CR. Several of the Pseach programs have already announced they will NOT proceed and are giving those with reservations time to make make Pseach at home My OP was anticipating exactly that outcome and suggesting better to cancel sooner rather than at the last minute. I’ve never said no one should go if that is their preference. I just think its an imprudent idea given the circumstances.

    #1840427
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    GH, but nobody asked for you to play nanny. As i stated before, the only opinions that counted were those of the rabbonim, physicians and health officials, not yours. Believe it or not, adults can , and did, make their own cheshbonim and didn’t need your repeated opinion.

    #1840435

    GH: While that may have been your intent, I certainly didn’t read it that way.

    #1840430
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Charlie Hall
    We have spent thousands on Pesach at home, but have hosted the entire extended family including in-laws at the CTL Compound.
    This year we now have to abide by the 50 person limit on gatherings and social distancing and possibly travel restrictions and an 8 PM curfew.
    So CHL Pesach will be limited to those who live in the compound, are within walking distance (a couple of siblings) and those who can stay here. Already we have 8 grandchildren moved in since schools/colleges have closed so they can be taught as a small group.
    Shopping may be the hardest part of making Pesach. But we have a separate Pesach kitchen and the freezers are full of meat and poultry and the pantry stocked with sealed canned, boxed and jarred food, It is fresh dairy and perishables that may be an issue, We don’t buy any prepared foods (ready to eat cooked food),

    I remember my great grandfather talking about Pesach: On the first day we had potatoes and eggs, on the second day we had eggs and potatoes.

    #1840464
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Anon yid. If you cannot read my repeated statements that everyone can decide for themselves, not much more I can do. At this point, my own and many other local communities are initiating major outreach efforts to assure that everyone has somewhere to go for the sedorim in case their plans were cancelled. My OP a week ago was focused on the likelihood that things would get much worse simply based on the trajectory of new cases in other countries and perhaps reconsider plans to travel out of town for Pesach. That has sadly proven to be the case. There is still plenty of time for everyone to make plans for the yom tovim if they don’t procrastinate further. A major evolving risk is that the employees of restaurants, hotels, caterers etc. will be unable to come to work. There is plenty of food available so that should not be a problem if you plan ahead NOW.

    #1840482
    yakbo
    Participant

    NYC expects us to leave home to move cars, while they close our kids schools, and ask us to work from home. Alternate Side Parking needs to be suspended for the next few weeks. #COVID19   Link removed

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