November 15, 2010 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #593045November 15, 2010 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #709662theprof1Participant
We all know what chazal tell us about sinas chinom, that it was the main reason for the destruction of the 2nd beis hamikdosh, even though the level of Torah learning was extremely high. And Chazal also tell us that this sickness of our nation, the yetzer hora of sinas chinom, still “dances” among us.
Many speakers talk about how we should “tolerate” each other. No, tolerate is not the answer. What does tolerate mean? It means that you are wrong, you stink, but I can “tolerate” you. NO!!!
The KEY word is “understand”. I don’t agree with you, you have a different outlook on everything, but I understand why this is, where you’re coming from. Your heritage and culture are different than mine and so we have different ways of serving Hashem. A moshel parable: I’m standing talking to a friend and get a call from Florida, how do I get to NYC? my answer, take I95 north. And then another call from Boston, how do I get to NYC? Take I95 south. And then a call from Chicago. Answer I80 east. Wait says my friend. You’re giving different directions to each on how to get to NYC? Yes I answer, it depends on where they are coming from. Each one of us in klal yisroel, no matter which heritage we come from, has the same goal, avdus Hashem. We all want to get to NYC. But our ways, our paths, depend on our background and heritage.
Hashem specifically made 12 tribes, 12 somewhat independent nations, each with different cultures. Hashem took us through 12 different paths in the Yam Suf, with transparent walls so we could see each other. We should see that although we all have different paths, but our goals are always the same. Getting through the Yam Suf to serve Hashem on Har Sinai.
If we would all just try to understand each other, Moshiach would come.November 15, 2010 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #709663SJSinNYCMember
No, we can’t.November 15, 2010 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #709664SRPsychMember
I know a guy who wears a kippa sruga and lives in a smallish city in Israel. One day, as is his norm, he picked up a hitchhiker who needed to get from one end of the city to the other. The hitchhiker wore a black hat. As his his norm, the driver asked the passenger for a dvar torah, which was provided.
Then, as they approached the passenger’s destination, the driver went out on a limb and asked him: “Do you think there will be a time when we will all be able to get along?” And as the passenger exited the vehicle he answered, “Nope. We want all of you out of our city.”
We’ve got a while ’til Moshiach, I’m afraid 🙁November 15, 2010 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #709665dunnoMember
This has been discussed many times in the CR…unfortunately it never leads anywhere.November 15, 2010 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #709666bptParticipant
Perhaps, if he only read some of the threads and some of the posts, he might draw that conclusion.
But if he read the rest of the threads and the rest of the posts, he would see a whole lotta caring and support and sensetivity.
(and BTW, you might consider doing so yourself. You’d be pleasantly surprised)November 15, 2010 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #709667msseekerMember
As long as some people here think kollel is worse than TV, I’m afraid not.November 15, 2010 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #709668
theprof1, well said!
SRPsych, thats what i fear
dunno, thats the problemNovember 15, 2010 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #709670msseekerMember
Thanks, Oomis. You couldn’t have made it clearer. It’s good for everyone here to see your attitudes spelled out.November 15, 2010 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #709671theprof1Participant
Seems that nobody read my post about trying to understand the other guy. Demeaning kolel and even merely suggesting any connection to TV shows a complete lack of understanding of a major portion of our nation. If you don’t like kolel, don’t allow your kids to go and don’t give any money. The lack of understanding is appalling.November 15, 2010 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #709672minyan galMember
And what is wrong with everyone appreciating differences, learning from and discussing with others? We most certainly do not have to agree on everything but I feel that we can all gain from discussing the various subjects that are posted here. I hope that I am not alone in this view.November 15, 2010 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #709673WIYMember
“As long as some people here think that watching carefully selected TV is worse than being a parasite, pushing your parents beyond their limits to continue to support you when you have a wife and children to take care of, while you sit in the comfort of the Beis Medrash having the pleasure of learning all day, while your wife does HER job AND yours… I am afraid not.”
The immediate problem that jumps out at me when reading your post is the fact that you made a mishmash of everything. You cant compare apples to oranges or oranges to peas! There are things that are wrong and things that are right but its extremely difficult to say whats worse than what unless the Torah explicitly tells us what sin…is worse than another.
Most of what you wrote is your opinion or the opinion of others. Yes guys not working when they should be is a huge problem, is that equal to watching TV? I dont see how one compares the 2. There are different categories lets keep things where they belong and not confuse ourselves by mixing and matching things that dont go together.November 15, 2010 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #709674aries2756Participant
WIY, why did you direct that to OOMIS when it was MSSEEKER who made the comparison?November 16, 2010 5:51 am at 5:51 am #709675oomisParticipant
To be fair, Aries, I did answer the original person who made the comparison.
mmseeker, I make no secret of my attitude. I have great respect for learning. I have even greater respect for men who make it their business to learn every day AND still support their families. I have zero respect for parasites who use the pretense of learning as a way of avoidance of adult responsibility, while placing their achrayus on their already over-burdened parents’ or wives’ plaitzas. And you and I both know there are many such bochurim in kollel. You are the one who made the comment about kollel versus tv. I merely responded with an opposing view.
As to the question of guys not working being equal to watching tv – I think it is far worse. When one watches tv, one is potentially (depending on what is being watched) damaging only himself. But, when he deliberately does not support his family, he is hurting his wife (who is pressured by the Kollel society to shoulder the family financial burdens by working instead of taking care of the responsibilities Hashem assigned to her), his children (who see little of him during most of the week), his parents (if they are providing support, especially at a time when they should possibly be retiring if they would so choose), and all the rest of us, who are asked to pay taxes from which they receive section 8, etc. because they are not making any money to suppport their families.
I have no quarrel with a poor yid who tries to make a living but it is insufficient and he needs some financial help. But I have seen married guys who sat in kollel for YEARS, while others stepped up to what should have been their plate, and I think it is wrong. Im ein kemach ein Torah. And what is worse, the girls are being brainswashed and made to feel they are not good Bnos Yisroel if they want a boy who is making a living AND learning.
Agree or disagree with me, as you see fit. The system is not working, and we are breeding a generation of men who will not be able to make a good enough parnassah that will enable them to support their own kids when THEY want to sit and learn after they get married.November 16, 2010 8:26 am at 8:26 am #709676November 16, 2010 8:30 am at 8:30 am #709677kapustaParticipant
As long as some people here think kollel is worse than TV, I’m afraid not.
Dont you mean ‘as long as some people don’t realize not everyone is coming from the same place’…?
(And no, I don’t knock Kollel nor do I encourage TV.)November 16, 2010 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #709678pet peeveMember
the prof: excellent.November 16, 2010 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #709679LawstudentMember
“cant we all get along?”
No. No we cannot.November 17, 2010 1:29 am at 1:29 am #709680Smile E. FaceMember
Lawstudent-why not? i dont understand why we cant all get along- its not a secret that “shivim panim latorah” and there is the concept of “aylu v’aylu divrei Elokim chayim” i follow my rav, you follow your rav, were all following the torah, shalom al yisrael!
maybe im just naieve, but i dont understand jewish politics, or why they even exist.
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