Home › Forums › Controversial Topics › Carlebach niggunim
- This topic has 77 replies, 29 voices, and was last updated 1 year, 7 months ago by Rainus.
April 27, 2018 10:31 am at 10:31 am #1512616K-cupParticipant
Lesschumras, that’s a different guy. He a director, lots of shady characters in Hollywood. There is an american produce r (bankroller) who has been shunned and kicked out of his company by his board and investors over the last year.April 27, 2018 10:32 am at 10:32 am #1512619
The jewish Movie Producer I am talking about is not a Holocaust SurvivorApril 27, 2018 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1512649
As a side note, I am not 100% sure the Holocaust Survivor was halachically jewish, His mothers origins are a bit unclear to meApril 27, 2018 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1512641GAONParticipant
100% Agree! Take any typical song composed today, they are MUCH worse than ANY Carlebach song.
It seems like this very thread is more of loshon hora and מוציא שם רע bashing…
There is no doubtthat the songs came from a good place, he “might” have had flaws and committed…et.
But as a general person, he had a deep neshamah and generally good intentions. His Ahavas Hashem and Yisrael was obvious on a very high level.
From what I heard, he was very makpid not to listen to any non-Jewish songs, thus his creativity and singing should not be tainted by any impure sources. Hence, unlike many other composers, wherein their songs are just a Hit and run, his songs will always be part of Klal Yisrael and sung by all at all times to connect to Hashem.
All the rest are just simply Lashon Horo etc.. and a waste of time.April 27, 2018 11:29 am at 11:29 am #1512638K-cupParticipant
Roman Polanski and Harvey WeinsteinApril 27, 2018 11:48 am at 11:48 am #1512665
It is not right to use “Loshon Harah” as an excuse to cover up bad behavior especially where there is a good reason to know, this is not Loshon Harah for the sake of Lashon Harah
People do have a right to decide if they dont want to use niggunim from someone who committed averios even the goyim disapprove of.
If someone was a murderer , but composed beautiful niggunim, wouldnt you want to know and have the right to refuse to sing them
People just seem unwilling to accept the fact that he did cetain averiosApril 27, 2018 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1512667🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
“From what I heard, he was very makpid not to listen to any non-Jewish songs, thus his creativity and singing should not be tainted by any impure sources. ”
I thought so too but was proven wrong on this. Which leaves me with zero things to hold in his favor.April 27, 2018 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1512684☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
100% Agree! Take any typical song composed today, they are MUCH worse than ANY Carlebach song.
There are also some very nice ones. Sing those.
From what I heard, he was very makpid not to listen to any non-Jewish songs, thus his creativity and singing should not be tainted by any impure sources.
Aside from that not being true (He sang Kumbaya and Ki Va Moed; the high part of Ki Va Moed is a secular tune), he was the source of his compositions.
Putting that aside, it’s certainly possible that the songs themselves can be okay even if the composer wasn’t. I think many people don’t want to sing his songs, especially in shul, because it simply disgusts them to think of who composed them.April 27, 2018 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1512691GAONParticipant
“It is not right to use “Loshon Harah” as an excuse ”
“People do have a right to decide if they dont want to use niggunim from someone who committed averios even the goyim disapprove of.”
The typical excuse of EVERY L”H that has been spoken for the past 2000 years….
Is everyone here SO makpid on every composed song where and who it is written by…April 27, 2018 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1512701
I just wonder if those who support him would still support him had he come out with an “Alternative Lifestyle” and then demand we dont speak Loshon Harah About itApril 27, 2018 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1512705
Putting aside the question as to whether this is even L”H, there’s no prohibition against L”H on someone who is deceased.April 27, 2018 1:28 pm at 1:28 pm #1512703
Would those defending him here by saying we should separate the end-result product from its producer similarly defend enjoying a molester’s work that is unrelated to his crimes?April 27, 2018 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1512712Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
““People do have a right to decide if they dont want to use niggunim from someone who committed averios even the goyim disapprove of.”
The typical excuse of EVERY L”H that has been spoken for the past 2000 years….”
Yes, and it’s been a legitimate heter for 2000 years. If there was a Rabbi who presents himself as frum but teaches real kefira, it’s not Lashon Hara to warn people. By the way, I really don’t know if this is the case with Carlebach; not my monkey, not my circus. I’m just responding to the non-defense of L”H allegations against anyone with whom you disagree.
I don’t think the posthumous assault allegations against Carlebach are the thing people are taking issue with. There seems to be a bigger trend in his behavior throughout his life being referenced, but I really know nothing about the matter.April 27, 2018 3:08 pm at 3:08 pm #1512714benignumanParticipant
IMHO there is difference between using his songs (where Rav Moshe’s teshuvah says its okay) and advertising a “Carlebach minyan” or a “Carlebach Shabbos.” The latter, which smacks of a celebration of the man, bothers me a good deal.
That being said, a person can do terrible acts of rishus and also do incredible acts of kedusha. People are complex, they have great capicity for holiness and great capacity for evil. And most people do both great acts and bad acts. It isn’t all or nothing, one campe or the other.April 27, 2018 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1512726
Neville — the posthumous assault allegations fit into the same category of public misdeeds done and known during his lifetime, just on a larger scale.
Benignuman — If celebrating the man disturbs you, presumably you accept the veracity of the allegations.April 27, 2018 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #1512767klugeryidParticipant
Putting aside the question as to whether this is even L”H, there’s no prohibition against L”H on someone who is deceased.
I’d be interested in your source.
As I posted I think on the other carlbach thread the חפץ חיים did not seem to think that is true
הלכות לשון הרע כלל ח סעיף ט
ודע עוד אפילו לבזות ולחרף את המתים ג”כ אסור. וכתבו נוסקים דיש תקנה וחרם קדמונים שלי להוציא שם רע על המתים. וכו’
So I am not sure where you are coming from. But please be careful before making such a blanket statementApril 28, 2018 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1512801jdbParticipant
Chevra, nobody is perfect. Rav Shlomo did his best, and I know many, many people who he sent to the best yeshivish. He changed a generation. He was accepted by major admorim.
Please remember that you don’t know where if your niggunim come from. There is a popular niggun used for havdala that is from the conservative movement. But it’s used.
If you don’t want to use a niggun, don’t. If someone finds beauty in his music, then use it to connect to Hashem.
The last thing HKBH, or Rav Shlomo would have wanted is a machlokes.April 29, 2018 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #1513204Yechi HamelechParticipant
In Chabad, we like to take his songs and change the words a little bit to make fun of him…
“Esah Einai El HeHarim, MeAyin Yovo Ezri”
(i lift my eyes to the mountains, from whence will my help cometh?)
and we switch it to “Esah Einai El Ezras Nashim, MeAyin Yovo Esti”
(i lift my eyes to the Womens’ Section, From Where Will Esti Come?)May 3, 2018 9:25 am at 9:25 am #1515259Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
Lolololololol I can’t believe they let that through.May 3, 2018 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1515514justanotherposhiteryidParticipant
why does Yeshiva World block swearing and Obscene comments which is arguably only an issur derabanan according to some but neglect to block a definate min hatorah prohibition of lashon harah…… for lashon harah to be permitted there are seven conditions>>> “t music from an impure place ” who are you to say that. like story of Acher” who according to one peshat cut up innocent people, its ironic you mention him as the gemarah in chagigah recounts how he went off because a greek tune never left his lips, carlebach did not allow people into his choir who listened to non jewish music. all other cases of lashon harah i fully condemn, us mortals should not specualte pesakim of gedolai hador we follow, this is the primary reason that coffee rooms should not be seen as an orthodox tool as it is a nesting ground for lashon harah, i heard directly from a person who used to spend a lot of time with carlebach that shlomo once told of a frum person for coming to one of his concerts, he told him that the concerts are for people who need to learn aleph beis, this bachur told him he came to have “fun” and carlebach got very anoyed when he understood his intentions, soon after he went to a side room with him and was there for 2and half hours, later this bachur left with red eyes from crying he had been suicidal that night and carlebach saved him…. but the point is that the concerts where on a lower level to connect with people at that level… i have pleny more to say on that story but thats the headlines.May 8, 2018 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1517931☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
Benignuman, what would you have them call a minyan or Shabbos
that’s being convened specifically to sing his compositions together?May 8, 2018 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1517929☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
There is a popular niggun used for havdala that is from the Conservative movement.
Debbie Friedman’s composition, I assume?May 8, 2018 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #1517949nishtdayngesheftParticipant
There were a number of questionable things that R Shloimah did. However to compare him to Harvey Weinstein is completely ridiculous. 1st, it shows that you are too involved in the nonsense of the Forward which would like everyone to assume that frum people are vile misogynists. You are falling for the Forward’s ploy.
Comparing him Weinstein makes very, very light of what Weinstein has done.
On the other hand, I know of much chesed that R Shloimah did and I know people who became frum directly as a result of R Shloimah’s efforts and there are now 4 generations of shomrei Torah, sitting and learning in yeshivos and kollelim just from this one couple he made frum. And that is not the only couple.May 9, 2018 1:17 am at 1:17 am #1517994slominerParticipant
nisht: Perhaps you don’t know that Carlebach did, otherwise how can you say that what Weinstein did was worse?
Regarding chesed and kiruv, there are examples I’ve heard of where a not frum person caused some people to become frum. Does doing that whitewash all the bad that person did?
Can someone also answer the question regarding whether saying l”h about a deceased person is muttar/assur or if it is halachicly different than saying l”h about a living person?May 9, 2018 8:07 am at 8:07 am #1518033nishtdayngesheftParticipant
I never said I know what he did, only what has been alleged. And even what was alleged was nowhere near Weinstein’s actions.
Nor did I say anywhere that his positives erase the aveiros he did.
And you can not compare someone who became frum because of a deed by a freier person to the active Kirov that R Shloime did. And it is not like the OO, because he pushed the people he wAs mekarev to levels of Frumkeit well beyond what he practiced.
I will say that to me it seems that R Shloime was a good person who was nichshal, even though it seems he put himself into such positions that made it easier. As opposed to Weinstein who used his position to force women to do things. I have never heard anyone say that R Shloime was not a ma’amin, which would make him and his niggunim different from those of Debbie Friedman and those of her ilk. And that would seem to be the position of R Moshe, who said that there is no issue signing Carlebach songs.
Lma’aseh R Ahron Kotler used to sit and listen to some of his songs and weep. And he knew that R Shloime was starting at that point.
Most places that I’ve been, song Carlebach because of the songs themselves and the words they are associated to, not because it is Carlebach. Even most so called Carlebach minyanim use his songs because of the style and not to honor R Shloime. Maybe you hang in different circles.May 9, 2018 9:56 am at 9:56 am #1518231benignumanParticipant
Call them a Hartzig Minyan or a Singing Shabbos.
First, the basic issur of negia was done in front of everyone, there is no need to believe allegations. Second, I am not accepting the allegations as certainly true, I am uncertain. But given that uncertainty, I am bothered by affirmative statements of support or celebration of the man.May 9, 2018 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1518483slominerParticipant
benignuman: If you don’t accept the allegations as true, why are you bothered that others reject the veracity of the allegations and subsequently offer affirmative statements of support or celebration of the man?
nisht: There are multiple allegations that fall into the same category as what Weinstein is accused of; to a lesser degree but unwanted activity.October 27, 2021 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #2021560RainusParticipant
When Rav Shimon Schwab was asked how his Kehilla could sing Mah Tovu to the melody composed by Lewandowski, who arranged mixed choirs? He answered, “Haben Sie Besseres?” (Do you have better?) Meaning, this melody is the best melody and therefore it is used.
I ask the same question about Carlebach nigunim: Do you have better?
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