Carpathian Jewry

A lot of the Chasidish oilem shtam from that area. It had a higher survival rate, as the area was part of Hungary during the war (and the Nazis ym’s didn’t go into Hungary until 1944.) One of the Spinka Rebbes lived in Seilish. Aside from the Chasidim, there were also other Orthodox and Neolog (similar to Conservative) living in those areas. Rav Menashe Klein zt’l learnt in the Yeshiva in Ungvar. Munkatch was a majority Jewish city (somewhat over 50% of the population.)

Where did you find data from the 1921 census?

I think they changed their name to the Woodfloorian Jews after remodeling some of their minhaggim.

So when Rashi says that he was in Rusia, does that mean Ukraine? He also uses a Russian word in Nach. He says that Yekev, mention in the buildin of the Beis Hamikdash by Shlomo Hamelech, is dluta in Russian. Is that Russian or Ukrainian? Perhaps the Great Bear can shed some light on this issue.

The Slavs were called Kenaanim.

That’s the point — Transcarpathia was one of the western-most regions of the Kievan Rus. Ukrainian developed from local Russian under heavy influence of Polish.

I am enjoying this thread. Thanks for starting it, Naisberg.

Chances are if you meet a dozen Yidden whose families left Europe just before the war or as refugees, 7 or 8 of them have roots in Carpathia (or the next region over toward Romania, Bukovina, which included major centers like Sadigora, which is really now a part of the former major Jewish city of Chernovitz; it is where my family is from). Those areas were not the worst places to live as Yidden until Communism and Naziism reared their hideous heads.

All of Jewish Carpathia and Bukovina is part of Ukraine now. It remains rural and underdeveloped; the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Carpathia besides Jewish history is mineral springs around which some primitive resorts have cropped up. One day I will visit.

cheftza – From what I understand the town was split between chassidish and non-chassidish, and my family was from the non-chassidish crowd, though you could probably classify them as Oberlander. The truth is I don’t know much else about the history of the town or the area and would like to know more, which is why I’m enjoying this thread. Either way, my Litvishe tendencies are better attributed to my Lakewood upbringing.

Oberlander is neither Chasidish nor Litvish but rather their own minhagim. The Chasam Sofer is probably the most well-known from the Oberlanders.

Doswin; Correction #2; You wrote “There were “Neologin”, (Similar to Conservative)”. That statement is incorrect. The counterpart of the Conservatives were the “Status-Quo”. The Neolog’in were considered the equivalent of the Reform movement. Even though some contemporary Historians consider the “Neolog’in” the equivalent of the Conservative movement, in the level of their observance.

The Status-Quo were simply Congregations that didn’t officially affiliate with either the Orthodox or the Neolog. Status-Quo ran the variety of the spectrum and didn’t indicate much. By way of example, Debrecin was Status-Quo, and they are as frum as they come.

Hungarian Jewish traditions are preserved in many communities in NY.

I thought that there is great overlap between the minhagim of Yekkes and Oberlanders.

There are many pre WWII Hungarians still alive here in our midst and continuing tradition of food, language and in der heim customs. My husbands family chose to stay in Romania after the war and stayed till 1962 when Communism basically took over. Surprisingly, being that i learned Hungarian just by listening to my parents speak, my husband and me very often speak the language too. Our children also understand and speak a little. Our cooking is 90% Hungarian. So traditions are passed on to the next generation and will phase out. In regard to Oberlanders, i too agree that here in N.Y. it’s very rare. Kehillos such as Nitra and Vien who were considered Oberlander,davened Ashkenaz,with many men clean shaven and wore up hats have changed to Chassidish all the way. But a fact is fact that the ehrlichkeit of the Oberlanders is something to be looked up at, as rare as it may be and something to learn from.

Mammele -“Health: what’s a Hunk?”

Hungarian.

Mamele, Prussian is German. North-Eastern German to be precise.

I was obviously wrong about the term Prussia. I did find this on Parnes.net on the history of Hungarian Jews:

“Internal Life during the 19th Century

In origin, spoken language, and cultural tradition and customs, Hungarian Jewry was divided into three sections: the Jews of the northwestern districts (Oberland) of Austrian and Moravian origin, who spoke German or a western dialect of Yiddish; the Jews of the northeastern districts (Unterland) mostly of Galician origin, who spoke an eastern dialect of Yiddish; and the Jews of central Hungary, the overwhelming majority of whom spoke Hungarian. In the classification of the inhabitants according to nationality, the overwhelming majority of the Jews in Hungary declared themselves members of the Hungarian nation;”

So basically the concept of Oberland existed, as Hungarian Jewry was somewhat of an amalgam of Jews from different origins. As I understand it the more assimilated lost their connection to either East or West, and the rest were classified as Polish or oberland. Then chassides was added to the mix…

You can contend that oberlander are really German Yekkes, similarly to the anti-Yiddish crowd (no offense, it’s just an illustration) that claims Yiddish is only a different dialect of German– it depends how far back you chose to go.

zdad: it seems we agree on this one. What I’m saying is that you can’t deny an “ethnicity for minhagim” exists simply because it originated elsewhere. Or else we’d all be exactly the same in our practices (or languages).

The city today is called Vynohradiv in the Ukraine. ????? is the town’s yiddish name based off the town’s Hungarian name of Sz?l?s.

Do you have family from there?