CCTV on Shabbos
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- This topic has 46 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 10 months ago by Joseph.
June 10, 2012 11:36 am at 11:36 am #603724
Whats the Halacha with CCTV on Shabbos?
May I walk by a camera that is in recording mode?
Is it permitted to have the system on and in recording mode on Shabbos?June 10, 2012 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #879617
Anyone?June 10, 2012 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #879618Doodle-Man™Member
Im gonna put my 2scents in and say its okay. Why should it be different than leaving the ac on?June 10, 2012 7:11 pm at 7:11 pm #879619
Moski, you have a point.
However did anyone hear any psak on this.
I just installed a camera system in my house, and want to make sure that there are no Halacha issues with leaving the DVR and monitors on for Shabbos.June 10, 2012 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #879620Guter yidParticipant
2 cents, this is a sheila you havta ask a rav, not anonymous commentators public forum..
But I will give you some clue where to start, the piskei teshuvos has a long teshuvah debating the sides for issur and heter, even though he’s showing many poskim that would’nt allow it on shabbos, he’s more or less maikil on it.
when I installed my cameras i asked a prominent rav and he told me as long it isn’t “motion detecting” it’s not a problem.June 10, 2012 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #879621zichmichMember
I know that in Rav Moshe Wolfson’s Shul in Boro Park (Emunas Yisroel)has CCTV that is in recording mode on Shabbos under his direction. [Since the Leiby kletzky tragedy]June 10, 2012 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #879622
I will definatley ask myLOR.
However I tried looking it up in piskei teshuvois, I was unable to find it.
I mainly searched in siman Shin mem.
Can you please let me know where he discusses this issue?June 11, 2012 5:14 am at 5:14 am #879623
Rav Schachter apparently has a Heter for it that he allows in YU for security reasons. Part of it, from what I heard, is that the recording is erased less than 24 hours later. I don’t see why it’s not K’siva D’oraisa (and I heard that R’ Elyashiv says it is).June 11, 2012 10:31 am at 10:31 am #879624
Why should it be ksiva doraisa? Who is doing the ksiva? The DVR itself!June 11, 2012 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #879625oomisParticipant
What about walking past a house with motion sensors, that turn lights on when you pass by?June 11, 2012 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #879626yungerman1Participant
Sam2- I have not learned hilchos kesiva, but how can it be D’oraisa if a: its not derech ksiva and b: you dont see any ksiva?
2scents- The prevalent minhag is that you are allowed to walk in front of the cameras. A few years ago there was a big tumult in the Old City about all of the cameras there. Allegedly R’ Elyashv said it was assur. (I say allegedly because I am skeptical of any psak that someone said he heard from R’ Elyashiv) Like many other tumults, it died down and almost everyone returned to visiting the kosel on Shabbos.
There may be a difference if there is a screen that shows what is happening which may be closer to ksiva- although temporary- than a recording. One person that I know was told by his Rav to turn the screen off before Shabbos.
Like everything else, aask your LOR.June 11, 2012 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #879627
Ksiva!? You are not writing or recording, the machine is doing that. Your action is what it is writing.June 11, 2012 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #879628
Your walking in front of the camera is a Ma’aseh K’sivah. And R’ Elyashiv says that for sure. I know someone who asked him and he responded that you cannot walk in front of a digital camera (on purpose; otherwise it’s a Melacha She’einah Tzricha L’gufah) held by an Israeli on second day Yom Tov because walking in front of it is a Ma’aseh K’siva.June 12, 2012 1:49 am at 1:49 am #879629
Even if it’s a Masseh ksiva, it’s not a reall ksiva (my opinion) since its not the derech to write like this.June 12, 2012 2:00 am at 2:00 am #879630
2scents: It certainly is a fairly normal Derech nowadays.June 12, 2012 9:09 am at 9:09 am #879631
I really don’t don’t get it. The machine is writing regardless whatever it sees. My being there doesn’t change anything other than what it will write.
One Gadol said that if this would be an issue you would be able to walk in the street since there are satellite cameras.June 12, 2012 9:59 am at 9:59 am #879632
Interesting. Someone walks and he does a ksiva at a remote location (onto the hard drive).
That should at least be a gerama. How is this a regular ksiva?June 12, 2012 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #879633ChortkovParticipant
A prominent Rav in London does not let his kids go to Gateshead Yeshiva because the cameras are on over Shabbos.
I fail to understand – there is a psak from the gedolim that walking past a light which operates on a sensor is okay, as long as you don’t need the light. So why is a camera worse – if anything, the light you are TURNING ON, whereas the camera will be recording whether you are there or not? What issur is there to be photographed on Shabbos?June 12, 2012 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #879634
2scents: We hold that anything specifically designed to work Al Y’dei Grama doesn’t count as a Grama.
HaLeiVi: Because it’s a Davar She’eino Miskaven?June 12, 2012 2:11 pm at 2:11 pm #879635
Sam2 does that include opening a fridge door?June 12, 2012 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #879636
Yekke: There are cameras rolling in the streets all over London. (For years already.) That city is abuzz with cameras.June 12, 2012 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #879637
2scents: You’re saying for turning on the motor? No. Because the fridge isn’t designed to turn on when the door is opened, it’s designed to turn on when the temperature goes above a certain level. The camera would be much more similar to, say, a clap-on light.June 12, 2012 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #879638Guter yidParticipant
2 cents, I don’t have the piskei teshuvos in front of me, but as far as I remember it’s in the latest edition hilchos shabbos, chapter 257.June 12, 2012 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #879639
Sam, that can be, especially since we hold that Psik Reisha D’lo Nicha Lei is Muttar.
However, would you call it K’siva if I come right be fore it goes on and just stand there? How about if before it goes on I quickly leave, is that like writing the wall behind me?
In case you wouldn’t call these K’siva, which is what I imagine and hope, why is moving different?June 12, 2012 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #879640
To me it doesn’t seem that different than someone writing everything I say.June 12, 2012 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #879641
HaLeiVi: Because in those two cases the camera isn’t doing anything at the time you’re moving. You’re doing something that will be written later, but there is no Ma’aseh K’siva whatsoever because the instrument that’s doing the K’siva doesn’t exist yet. And your comparison is off by a little bit. It’s not having someone else write what you say, it’s like having a computer program set up to type out everything you say. Would you be okay with that?
By the way, I’m not 100% sure of my opinion that it’s real K’siva, so I’m perfectly okay with passing any Shailos about this on to someone reliable who I know is Meikel (e.g. any Talmid of Rav Schachter), but I do know that Rav Elyashiv agrees with me and it makes a lot of sense.June 13, 2012 12:06 am at 12:06 am #879642
Does it make a difference if in addition to saving the movie to a hard drive there is also a live monitor displaying the movements?
And is there any difference between a conventional security video camera and a video camera on a satellite in orbit recording live movements on Earth?June 13, 2012 1:00 am at 1:00 am #879643
Csar: I would think there’s a huge movement. If there’s no screen and it’s only data being saved to a hard drive then there’s no K’siva at all because there’s nothing at all being drawn at that time. (This probably gives us another Heter for the satellite issue.)
I would assume there’s no difference. Why would there be?June 13, 2012 1:16 am at 1:16 am #879644
If I write a shem Hashem on a computer screen, there is no issur mechikas Hashem for me to switch the computer off becuase the writing was never meant to stay there in the first place. This is better than writing with fruit juice say, becuase in that case the writing is at least nominally writing which is meant to have some permanence, but here no-one would think that any writing on a computer screen is meant to be permanent in any way, otherwise you wouldn’t be able to continue using your computer to display other things.
The same would seem to apply to walking in front of a CCTV camera, which should be mutar.
I don’t think the notion that ‘the machine (camera etc.) is doing it, not me’ has any validity becuase machines aren’t sentient and they simply do what you make them do.June 13, 2012 1:39 am at 1:39 am #879645
Pcoz: Rav Elyashiv holds that Shem Hashem written on a computer screen has an Issur of Mechikah.June 13, 2012 1:42 am at 1:42 am #879646
Why do you say there is no K’siva whatsoever? It records constantly whatever is in front of it. And that is why it is not like dictating to a computer. It doesn’t stop or go on your word.June 13, 2012 1:46 am at 1:46 am #879647
Sam: So if the government (and some private enterprises) are able to monitor a live satellite feed, on a screen, of anywhere in the world, how can anyone ever go outside on Shabbos (as HaLeiVi asked earlier) anywhere?June 13, 2012 1:52 am at 1:52 am #879648
HaLeiVi: Sure it does. The picture of myself is directly dictated by my actions. Your case would be similar to turning on the light switch while the electricity is disconnected, which the Shmiras Shabbos says is okay. There’s no Ma’aseh K’siva being done because at the time when you did your Ma’aseh the object that would do the K’siva did not exist yet for our intents and purposes.June 13, 2012 2:41 am at 2:41 am #879649
Sam2: This is not the minhag ha’olam. According to that psak if you ever loaded a website or document that showed a shem Hashem you would have to leave your computer and monitor running forever untouched.June 13, 2012 3:02 am at 3:02 am #879650
Pcoz: Correct. I have said that over many times here. When Rav Elyashiv was then told that that would make Bar Ilan (among other things) Assur to use, his response was “Tzarich Lefarsem”.June 13, 2012 3:17 am at 3:17 am #879651
So why should a CCTV camera be assur? Even if the image is recorded to a hard disk this is not kesivah just as erasing a file with the Shem Hashem in it would not be mechikahJune 13, 2012 3:37 am at 3:37 am #879652shmoelMember
Satellite imagery and video cameras on local streets are the same thing as far as halacha is concerned. So, really, the entire universe is always being filmed on video during Shabbos.June 13, 2012 4:20 am at 4:20 am #879653YW Moderator-42Moderator
Can somebody in Israel post on the CR motzaei Shabbos if the post is being recorded on a server located in the US on Shabbos? Same question would apply to email, if my email is located on a server in California (Google) can I use it during the first 3 hours after Shabbos is NY, it is “writing” to a server on Shabbos.June 13, 2012 4:26 am at 4:26 am #879654
Mod 42: Yes. Rav Abadi has a Tshuvah (in the first Chelek of Or Yitzchak, don’t remember the Siman number) where he says for sure it’s okay. He says you can leave a message on the answering machine. He even says that you can call a Goy from Eretz Yisrael and ask him to do Melachah.June 13, 2012 4:28 am at 4:28 am #879655
Rb Frand gave a shiur that this is mutar – he was discussing faxing to America when it is shabbos in USA but in your timezone shabbos is out or not yet in. He said it would also be mutar for the recipient of the fax to read it in this case.June 13, 2012 5:37 am at 5:37 am #879656
Sam, it seems like you view the wall behind me as blank paper and my movement, or myself, as what’s written. The way I see it is that the whole scenery is being written at whatever frame-rate per second, regardless of whether I’m there or not. That is why I compared it to someone writing what you are saying. He is writing regardless; the content is influenced by you. Like a car that is driving, and you cause it to go left or right.June 13, 2012 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #879657ChortkovParticipant
I think it is less than a car, which you are moving and maybe even causing the usage of more petrol. And the car, you are driving it with intention.
1) Except for a motion run camera, every camera records everything that is in front of it. Every detail is printed as a different pixel – a PERSON is nothing more than a wall.
2) Even if it is considered Kesivah, you are not doing it – at most it is a garmi (direct consequence of your action), and according to the rishonim who say it has to be Beyad (the masser of issur/forbidden action must be done with your actions), here the computer is doing the action, so it a gromo (indirect consequence).
3) It is Lo Nischaven, maybe even Misasek (unintentional), and if you are just walking past, it is Psik Reisha dLo Nicha Leih (a consequence that you don’t want/need).
4) Even a camera run by motion sensor which only records when there is a movement, it is the same as a light-on-sensor outside houses, and the psak from R’ Shmuel Halevi Vosner Shlit”a is that there is no problem to walk past, providing you don’t want the light specifically.
5) It is practically impossible to walk down a main street without being photographed – apparently a walk from Golders Green Station to the North Circular (LONDON) – (twenty minute walk) – you get photographed 300 times. Every shop has one or more security camera, some houses have and the banks have multiple cameras. How do you walk on Shabbos if you dont go in front of cameras?June 13, 2012 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #879658
Number 5 is not a raye, since if it’s assur, then you should stay home or move to a different place.
I don’t think that a recording camera is at similar to a motion sensor. A motion detector does not record, so there is no sheila of ksiva. A DVR does record.
The fact that it would anyhow record, doesn’t seem satisfying, since what would happen anyhow, does not make something mutter.
Is there any posek that WROTE something on this topic?
I think that it’s a bit complicated.June 13, 2012 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #879659
Moving anywhere doesn’t help. The U.S. Military has video cameras on satellites in the sky that can record anyone anywhere in the world, even showing small details like individual faces.June 13, 2012 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #879660
2scents, very often the Gemara does bring a Raya from practicalities.
I think you misunderstood our point of the fact that it is being done anyhow. It’s not like I’m planting since it will be planted anyhow. I’m not doing k’siva at all. The camera is marking down the value, or a function of values, for every pixel.
The pixel being red or blue does ot affect the question of whether or not it is writing. It is all the same K’siva, regardless of what’s there. A person is not anymore of a valid mark than a wall.May 25, 2017 8:48 am at 8:48 am #1285317chabadgalParticipant
sorry its a *little* late
you know there are cctvs by the kosel right? so youre allowed to go there… so yeah its fine to walk by cctvs. youre not the one who put them there. and youre not causing it to record or anythign like that.May 25, 2017 10:30 am at 10:30 am #1285459JosephParticipant
How about a CCTV that’s activated by a motion detector?
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