- This topic has 46 replies, 15 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Whats the Halacha with CCTV on Shabbos?
May I walk by a camera that is in recording mode?
Is it permitted to have the system on and in recording mode on Shabbos?
Im gonna put my 2scents in and say its okay. Why should it be different than leaving the ac on?
2 cents, this is a sheila you havta ask a rav, not anonymous commentators public forum..
But I will give you some clue where to start, the piskei teshuvos has a long teshuvah debating the sides for issur and heter, even though he’s showing many poskim that would’nt allow it on shabbos, he’s more or less maikil on it.
when I installed my cameras i asked a prominent rav and he told me as long it isn’t “motion detecting” it’s not a problem.
I know that in Rav Moshe Wolfson’s Shul in Boro Park (Emunas Yisroel)has CCTV that is in recording mode on Shabbos under his direction. [Since the Leiby kletzky tragedy]
Rav Schachter apparently has a Heter for it that he allows in YU for security reasons. Part of it, from what I heard, is that the recording is erased less than 24 hours later. I don’t see why it’s not K’siva D’oraisa (and I heard that R’ Elyashiv says it is).
What about walking past a house with motion sensors, that turn lights on when you pass by?
Sam2- I have not learned hilchos kesiva, but how can it be D’oraisa if a: its not derech ksiva and b: you dont see any ksiva?
2scents- The prevalent minhag is that you are allowed to walk in front of the cameras. A few years ago there was a big tumult in the Old City about all of the cameras there. Allegedly R’ Elyashv said it was assur. (I say allegedly because I am skeptical of any psak that someone said he heard from R’ Elyashiv) Like many other tumults, it died down and almost everyone returned to visiting the kosel on Shabbos.
There may be a difference if there is a screen that shows what is happening which may be closer to ksiva- although temporary- than a recording. One person that I know was told by his Rav to turn the screen off before Shabbos.
Like everything else, aask your LOR.
Ksiva!? You are not writing or recording, the machine is doing that. Your action is what it is writing.
Your walking in front of the camera is a Ma’aseh K’sivah. And R’ Elyashiv says that for sure. I know someone who asked him and he responded that you cannot walk in front of a digital camera (on purpose; otherwise it’s a Melacha She’einah Tzricha L’gufah) held by an Israeli on second day Yom Tov because walking in front of it is a Ma’aseh K’siva.
2scents: It certainly is a fairly normal Derech nowadays.
I really don’t don’t get it. The machine is writing regardless whatever it sees. My being there doesn’t change anything other than what it will write.
One Gadol said that if this would be an issue you would be able to walk in the street since there are satellite cameras.
A prominent Rav in London does not let his kids go to Gateshead Yeshiva because the cameras are on over Shabbos.
I fail to understand – there is a psak from the gedolim that walking past a light which operates on a sensor is okay, as long as you don’t need the light. So why is a camera worse – if anything, the light you are TURNING ON, whereas the camera will be recording whether you are there or not? What issur is there to be photographed on Shabbos?
2scents: We hold that anything specifically designed to work Al Y’dei Grama doesn’t count as a Grama.
HaLeiVi: Because it’s a Davar She’eino Miskaven?
Yekke: There are cameras rolling in the streets all over London. (For years already.) That city is abuzz with cameras.
2scents: You’re saying for turning on the motor? No. Because the fridge isn’t designed to turn on when the door is opened, it’s designed to turn on when the temperature goes above a certain level. The camera would be much more similar to, say, a clap-on light.
2 cents, I don’t have the piskei teshuvos in front of me, but as far as I remember it’s in the latest edition hilchos shabbos, chapter 257.
Sam, that can be, especially since we hold that Psik Reisha D’lo Nicha Lei is Muttar.
However, would you call it K’siva if I come right be fore it goes on and just stand there? How about if before it goes on I quickly leave, is that like writing the wall behind me?
In case you wouldn’t call these K’siva, which is what I imagine and hope, why is moving different?
To me it doesn’t seem that different than someone writing everything I say.
HaLeiVi: Because in those two cases the camera isn’t doing anything at the time you’re moving. You’re doing something that will be written later, but there is no Ma’aseh K’siva whatsoever because the instrument that’s doing the K’siva doesn’t exist yet. And your comparison is off by a little bit. It’s not having someone else write what you say, it’s like having a computer program set up to type out everything you say. Would you be okay with that?
By the way, I’m not 100% sure of my opinion that it’s real K’siva, so I’m perfectly okay with passing any Shailos about this on to someone reliable who I know is Meikel (e.g. any Talmid of Rav Schachter), but I do know that Rav Elyashiv agrees with me and it makes a lot of sense.
Does it make a difference if in addition to saving the movie to a hard drive there is also a live monitor displaying the movements?
And is there any difference between a conventional security video camera and a video camera on a satellite in orbit recording live movements on Earth?
Csar: I would think there’s a huge movement. If there’s no screen and it’s only data being saved to a hard drive then there’s no K’siva at all because there’s nothing at all being drawn at that time. (This probably gives us another Heter for the satellite issue.)
I would assume there’s no difference. Why would there be?
If I write a shem Hashem on a computer screen, there is no issur mechikas Hashem for me to switch the computer off becuase the writing was never meant to stay there in the first place. This is better than writing with fruit juice say, becuase in that case the writing is at least nominally writing which is meant to have some permanence, but here no-one would think that any writing on a computer screen is meant to be permanent in any way, otherwise you wouldn’t be able to continue using your computer to display other things.
The same would seem to apply to walking in front of a CCTV camera, which should be mutar.
I don’t think the notion that ‘the machine (camera etc.) is doing it, not me’ has any validity becuase machines aren’t sentient and they simply do what you make them do.
Pcoz: Rav Elyashiv holds that Shem Hashem written on a computer screen has an Issur of Mechikah.
Why do you say there is no K’siva whatsoever? It records constantly whatever is in front of it. And that is why it is not like dictating to a computer. It doesn’t stop or go on your word.
Sam: So if the government (and some private enterprises) are able to monitor a live satellite feed, on a screen, of anywhere in the world, how can anyone ever go outside on Shabbos (as HaLeiVi asked earlier) anywhere?
HaLeiVi: Sure it does. The picture of myself is directly dictated by my actions. Your case would be similar to turning on the light switch while the electricity is disconnected, which the Shmiras Shabbos says is okay. There’s no Ma’aseh K’siva being done because at the time when you did your Ma’aseh the object that would do the K’siva did not exist yet for our intents and purposes.
Sam2: This is not the minhag ha’olam. According to that psak if you ever loaded a website or document that showed a shem Hashem you would have to leave your computer and monitor running forever untouched.
Pcoz: Correct. I have said that over many times here. When Rav Elyashiv was then told that that would make Bar Ilan (among other things) Assur to use, his response was “Tzarich Lefarsem”.
So why should a CCTV camera be assur? Even if the image is recorded to a hard disk this is not kesivah just as erasing a file with the Shem Hashem in it would not be mechikah
Satellite imagery and video cameras on local streets are the same thing as far as halacha is concerned. So, really, the entire universe is always being filmed on video during Shabbos.
Can somebody in Israel post on the CR motzaei Shabbos if the post is being recorded on a server located in the US on Shabbos? Same question would apply to email, if my email is located on a server in California (Google) can I use it during the first 3 hours after Shabbos is NY, it is “writing” to a server on Shabbos.
Mod 42: Yes. Rav Abadi has a Tshuvah (in the first Chelek of Or Yitzchak, don’t remember the Siman number) where he says for sure it’s okay. He says you can leave a message on the answering machine. He even says that you can call a Goy from Eretz Yisrael and ask him to do Melachah.
Rb Frand gave a shiur that this is mutar – he was discussing faxing to America when it is shabbos in USA but in your timezone shabbos is out or not yet in. He said it would also be mutar for the recipient of the fax to read it in this case.
Sam, it seems like you view the wall behind me as blank paper and my movement, or myself, as what’s written. The way I see it is that the whole scenery is being written at whatever frame-rate per second, regardless of whether I’m there or not. That is why I compared it to someone writing what you are saying. He is writing regardless; the content is influenced by you. Like a car that is driving, and you cause it to go left or right.
I think it is less than a car, which you are moving and maybe even causing the usage of more petrol. And the car, you are driving it with intention.
1) Except for a motion run camera, every camera records everything that is in front of it. Every detail is printed as a different pixel – a PERSON is nothing more than a wall.
2) Even if it is considered Kesivah, you are not doing it – at most it is a garmi (direct consequence of your action), and according to the rishonim who say it has to be Beyad (the masser of issur/forbidden action must be done with your actions), here the computer is doing the action, so it a gromo (indirect consequence).
3) It is Lo Nischaven, maybe even Misasek (unintentional), and if you are just walking past, it is Psik Reisha dLo Nicha Leih (a consequence that you don’t want/need).
4) Even a camera run by motion sensor which only records when there is a movement, it is the same as a light-on-sensor outside houses, and the psak from R’ Shmuel Halevi Vosner Shlit”a is that there is no problem to walk past, providing you don’t want the light specifically.
5) It is practically impossible to walk down a main street without being photographed – apparently a walk from Golders Green Station to the North Circular (LONDON) – (twenty minute walk) – you get photographed 300 times. Every shop has one or more security camera, some houses have and the banks have multiple cameras. How do you walk on Shabbos if you dont go in front of cameras?
Moving anywhere doesn’t help. The U.S. Military has video cameras on satellites in the sky that can record anyone anywhere in the world, even showing small details like individual faces.
2scents, very often the Gemara does bring a Raya from practicalities.
I think you misunderstood our point of the fact that it is being done anyhow. It’s not like I’m planting since it will be planted anyhow. I’m not doing k’siva at all. The camera is marking down the value, or a function of values, for every pixel.
The pixel being red or blue does ot affect the question of whether or not it is writing. It is all the same K’siva, regardless of what’s there. A person is not anymore of a valid mark than a wall.
sorry its a *little* late
you know there are cctvs by the kosel right? so youre allowed to go there… so yeah its fine to walk by cctvs. youre not the one who put them there. and youre not causing it to record or anythign like that.How about a CCTV that’s activated by a motion detector?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.