May 30, 2014 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #612915
In another thread, it was argued that we shouldn’t celebrate any victories in Israel because the state was founded by Zionists and they are bad. Any lives saved were only put in danger because of the sins of the Zionists, and therefore it’s not such a great thing that they were saved.
(Please note that I don’t agree with the arguments I wrote in the first paragraph!)
I think we should stop celebrating Purim. After all, the Jews were only put in danger because they sinned by going to Achashveirosh’s party. Had they not sinned, there would have been no need for miracles.
We can’t forget Chanukah! Lives were endangered because of the sins of the misyavnim. Had they not sinned, all would have been good. We shouldn’t celebrate it anymore!
Obviously, this was tongue in cheek. Yet the point remains: Jews get punished by Hashem when we do wrong. We still celebrate the redemption. So even if you hold Zionism to be wrong, why not celebrate the gifts Hashem gave us, no matter why it was taken away in the first place?May 30, 2014 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #1018207oomisParticipant
I have lived my entire life by a “gam zu l’tovah” ideology (and it has not always been so easy or glatt to do so). If good comes out of bad – kol hakavod. No one wishes for bad, but B”H the Eibishter with great Rachmanus mitigates that bad for us in some manner.May 30, 2014 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #1018208
The simple answer is because the celebration is kochi v’otzem yodi. Did you really think its comparable to purim and chanuka?May 30, 2014 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #1018209
Squeak: Did you see any of the posts here about Yom Yerushalayim? All of the posts celebrating it thanked Hashem for the wonderful gift He gave us. How can you say that’s kochi v’otzem yodi? Saying Hallel is kochi v’otzem yodi? All the religious Zionists who celebrate Yom Yerushalayim are saying the opposite of kochi v’otzem yodi – we are recognizing it as a miracle!
Do I think it’s comparable to Purim and Chanukah? In some ways, yes. It was definitely rabim b’yad miatim. It was definitely a miracle that Hashem performed. I’d say it’s more similar to Purim because the nes wasn’t as open as Chanukah was. But it was still a miracle.
Even in 1967, when the soldiers took control of the Kotel, what was their reaction? Did they say, “Hey, we did it!”? No! They stopped in awe of the holy location. Then they davened! The Rav made a brachah of menachem Tzion uvoneh Yerushalayim! They blew shofar! They recognized it as a spiritual event and location, and thanked Hashem accordingly.May 30, 2014 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1018210☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
We can start by looking at who instituted these days; Chaza”l vs., l’havdil, the Israeli government.
Squeak is right that there’s kochi v’otzem yodi involved, and DaMoshe is right that the frum celebrants attribute it to Hashem. This has always been part of the debate surrounding RZ – the joining with kofrim on religious grounds is at the center of the issue.June 1, 2014 1:58 am at 1:58 am #1018211
“How can you say that’s kochi v’otzem yodi? Saying Hallel is kochi v’otzem yodi?”
Yes, we can see your split hooves, but we are more discerning.June 1, 2014 3:22 am at 3:22 am #1018213simcha613Participant
Squeak- uch. This is the problem with many of the “anti-zionists” out there. They not only disagree with religious zionsim, but they are determined to take away all legitimacy. There are problems with religious zionism, but there is good as well. And the fact that you, and many like you, refuse to see it, and refuse to admit it, is very bothersome. Yom Yerushalayim, at least from the persepctive of the religious, is all about shevach and hodaah to Hashem. It is not kochi veotzem yadi at all. It doesn’t matter though, not only will nothing convince you that religious zionsim is a legitimate hashkafah, nothing will convince you that there’s anything positive about at all.June 1, 2014 5:24 am at 5:24 am #1018214Sam2Participant
I find it so, so ironic that the most ardent antizionist here is the one who is forced to say that the 6-day war was Kocho V’otzem Yad of Israel because he cannot admit that there was any Nes involved.June 1, 2014 6:12 am at 6:12 am #1018215HaKatanParticipant
There is nothing to admit. History is plain that there simply was no neis. One is entitled to one’s own opinion, not one’s own facts.
But “no neis” does not contradict, CH”V, neither Hashem’s full control of the world nor, for that matter, bechira chafshis.
The Zionists prefer to instead claim non-existent miracles that, even if it were true, that therefore there should be a new Yom Tov in Klal Yisrael for the first time since the establishment of the only holiday established after Tanach, Chanukah (disregarding, for this purpose, other Zionist holidays), especially given the cost in lives, that the Zionists were the ones who lost it in the first place, etc.
I don’t see the irony of consistent belief in the Torah and only the Torah
editedJune 1, 2014 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1018216HaKatanParticipant
Gedolim have said that it is not only not “a legitimate hashkafa” but it is “a sea of edited mixed with a drop of Torah” (Brisker Rav) and “Religion and edited together” (Rav Elchonon Wasserman). Rav Shach, Rav Aharon Kotler and others held similarly.
No, it is not a “legitimate hashkafa”, much as some might wish it were.June 1, 2014 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #1018217HaLeiViParticipant
The Nissim shown in the Israeli wars are no less than the many Nissim we relate of what happened throughout the generations. The Nissim we see daily might even be greater since it is continuous. Of this it is said Ke’ilu Yesh Lo Eloka. It is visible that we have Someone protecting us.
Why should we be Kafoiye Tov, especially Beshita? In fact, the arguments to explain away the events don’t sound much different from any athiest explaining all the Nissim we all agree to. Descriptions of Yetzios Mitzraim in many encyclopedias sound just like the founding of Israel. It is scary to me, hearing this type of thinking in our midst. This is the real edited training.
On the other hand it is ignorant to think this is the first Ness we’ve had since Chanuka. What about where Rebbe Shimon got rid of evil Roman decrees through a miracle? What about when Rabbeinu Hakadosh miraculously showed up to the kaiser and averted a catasrophe? Should we declare a holiday the day the Amshinover Rebbe told the Japanese why the Germans hate us?
It would have been very appropriate to thank Hashem at the time, publicly. Perhaps designating a day to add some Tehillos would also be nice. But adding more significance to that than a Hillula is obviously just out of the nationalism of which, as we know, many were opposed.June 1, 2014 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1018218☕️coffee addictParticipant
Rav Aharon Feldman told the bachurim on yom yerushalayim that he agreed saying hallel until the zionists said kochi v’otzem yadi, with their parades showing their “military might”, lhavdil that cannot be said by chanuka which everyone agreed it was a neis they won (the same went for purim)
even with the da’ati community saying hallel and realizing it was a neis, which I believe it was, we only say hallel on nissim where the whole klal yisrael realizes it was a neis, a neis is basically hashem showing his presence, if people dont see it I wouldnt be surprised that we dont say hallelJune 1, 2014 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1018219
HaKatan: How do you explain the story in the Yom Yerushalayim thread, when R’ Yaakov Kaminetzky zt”l said Hallel in 1967 when the Israeli soldiers took control of the Har Habayis? Please don’t claim (as Joseph did at the time) that the story is false. R’ Reisman shlita said over the story in a shiur, so it has been verified.June 1, 2014 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1018221kedushaskohenMember
What about a kohen that is happy about the chet haegel because if not for the chet haegel he would not be a kohen? Celebrating something good (being a kohen) that came from bad (chet haegel).June 1, 2014 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #1018222HaLeiViParticipant
And what about a Levi that feels ripped off since he didn’t do the Egel and still isn’t a Kohen?
(Truth is, this is what I didn’t understand from the famous story of the Chafetz Chayim.)June 1, 2014 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #1018223
If the celebration was genuinely l’shem shamayim to give shevach vehoda’a to hashem for delivering the victory, there would be no need to create a new yom tov. We know from chazal that post chazal redemptions are to be celebrated together with the first days of pesach, and days of mourning are to be observed together with the 3 weeks. But that wouldn’t satisfy the narcissism of these atheists- no, they must have their own day- in the middle of sfira no less, to show their disdain for everything chazal taught and religious jews believe in. And then they claim that WE are disparaging THEIR traditions. Arrogant hypocrites!
Then to flaunt their split hooves by claiming the recital of hallel proves their intentions are pure, they must think us stupid to boot. Yom haatzmaut, yom hashoah, yom yerushalayim, these are not holidays for jews, they are meant to REPLACE holidays for jews. So I say to them (and their Religious Zionist followers), “We have seen the likes of you before, from the misyavnim to the reform you are all the same. We do not change to be like you and we will outlast you. Your desire to destroy klal yisroel will fail just as your predecessors did.
Austritt!”June 1, 2014 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #1018224YW Moderator-127Moderator
This thread is going the way of all Zionism threads. Closed.
- The topic ‘Celebrating good caused by bad’ is closed to new replies.